As replied to Ram Suri’s question dated: March 24, 2004
Ram Suri: Namaskar. I have written the answers for you questions or objections with references from scriptures. Some of the subjects are give a topic, and both your’ s and my views are shown, along with my present answers. You can verify your statements quoted by me from your previous emails.
Swami Ram Swarup: Namaskar. I am happy to receive your reply. Please continue till its finalization.
* Topic: Does soul have a subtle body after absolute salvation?
Swami Ram Swarup: Shatpath Brahmin Granth 3/7/6 clarifies that he who has studied four Vedas and has practiced Ashtang Yoga as per Yajurveda mantra 7/4, he is only a perfect Acharya/Rishi/Guru and similarly Kapil Muni in his Samkhya Shastra sutra 1/66 ,” AAPTOPDESHAH SHABDAH” says that such Acharya and his words are considered as a proof of four Vedas. Because they have attained the eighth fold path of Ashtang Yoga i.e., Samadhi. Yog Shastra sutra 1/7 also says the similar truth about an Acharya with regard to a proof and also includes that the eternal knowledge of God in the shape of
four Vedas, are self proof. So in short, we will have to consider the above said proof to come to a truth.There must not be our own made views or views of these books not written by authentic Rishis. So based on the
Rishis’ Granths there are eight types of Darshan
(proof) —- PRATAKSHA, ANUMAAN, UPAMAAN, SHABDA,
ATIHYA, ARTHAPATTI, SAMBHAV AND ABHAAV.
So will have to consider the above proof to come to
the truth. Upnishad , shastra and Bhagwat geeta etc.,
have been written by Rishis based on knowledge of four
Vedas only. Generally what happens we study the
comments written by those either who are against the
Vedas or try to escape from the Vedas saying that the
Vedas are difficult which is incorrect. Present
explanation must therefore be by an authentic
dignity having knowledge of four Vedas. This is basic
fundamental and can’t be changed. Now we come to the
point. Please also study Yog shastra sutra 2/3 —
AVIDYASMITA RAAGDWESHABHNIVESHAPANCHKALESAHA which
clarifies that Avidya produces untruth, blind faith
etc., in absence of the knowledge of Vedas.
Topic: Does soul have a subtle body after absolute salvation?
Swami Ram Swarup: I have mentioned below the proof of being suksham sharir (swa sankalp power) of soul in salvation (moksh). In moksh soul has no sthool sharir but with own desire the soul gets ear, nose, mind etc., to
enjoy the moksh merriment, which is called suksham
sharir. That is why suksham sharir is unseen.
Vedas are only self-proof being the knowledge direct
from God. If Rishis and Munis had not studied Vedas,
how they could write Upanishads, Valmiki Ramayan, six
shastras etc. the Rishis have first praised Vedas in
their shastras etc., and not their own written
culture. It is a wonder that people for their own
suitability escapes themselves not to study Vedas and
are only after upnishads etc., whereas the base of
upnishads, shastras etc., are four Vedas. The
upnishads, shastras yet have no full fledged knowledge
as is available in Vedas.
So first we must respect our parents then we must love
our children please.
In Vedas souls, Prakriti and God are the topic
alongwith other matters, knowledge and deeds. As I
have previously briefed vide Rigveda mandal 10 wherein
traitwad is mentioned. Moksh (Salvation) is there in
four Vedas and not Purann moksh – absolute salvation
.Moksh itself has a meaning absolute salvation because
there is no any temporarily salvation in Vedas. So no
discussion can be continued on this word ” absolute
Salvation”. Otherwise please quote any Ved mantra.
Swamiji’s response as follows:
1a) “Braham sutra 4/2/8 clarifies that shuksham
sharir of ignorant is up to pralay and of knolwedgest
up to Braham prapti. But we can’t come to the point
based only on this sutra. It is related with the
previous and forward sutras. Please study sutra
4/2/15,16 also wherein word “AVIBHAGAH” is qouted.
AVIBHAG means during Moksh,salvation or final
liberation etc., etc.”
1b)” the soul will not loose his original shape as
mentioned in Chhandog upnishad 6/9/1,2. Therefore
merger (laya) means the soul with his shuksham sharir
will not act as this was doing when sea was not merged
but will retain his shuksham sharir at the time of
merger.( salvation,moksh,total liberation,final
liberation,kevalaya pad,samadhi,absolute salvation
etc.,) otherwise how soul can enjoy moksh ,pleasure
without shuksham sharir. Because soul is unable to do
anything without shuksham or sathul sharir”
2) “Please see Braham sutra 4/4/11 wherein Jemini
accepts the shuksham sharir in moksh. Please see
Chhandog upnishad 7/26/2 wherein it is mentioned that
in moksh the soul builts 3,5,11 and thousands i.e.,
types of body. Because soul can not be divided into
bodies”
3) “Please see Kath upnishad 2/6/10 which says that
when mind and five senses becomes stable in God i.e.,
called total salvation. Please See shalok 15 of the
same Kath upnishad therein it is said that soul with
pure senses and mind enjoys the final liberation”
4) “Suppose in salvation soul has no suksham sharir
then how will he enjoy the salvation”
Ram Suri response for question 1a): I quoted the
Brahma Sutra IV.2.8 to show that subtle body exists
until the soul existed separately from divine. But,
once the soul merges in divine, then there is no
subtle body. In this regard, you asked me to look
sutras IV.2.15&16.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please again see the following :-
Vedanta sutra 4/2/15 says,” TAANI PAREY TATHA HYAH”
Tani = suksham sharir ( with reference to previous
sutras) Parey = Per Brahma, Tatha = the same, Hi =
because, Aaha = says
Meaning—- because the shastras say therefore suksham
sharir is merged in Per Brahma.
Sutra says that suksham Bhoot are merged in Per
brahma. A deep study of Vedas and sutra 4/2/16 clarify
the meaning of merger (laya). Sutra 4/2/16 says,”
AVIBHAGO VACHNAT” i.e., merger means “AVIBHAGAHA” and
vachnat means based on shastra vachan. So the meaning
of Avibhagaha is that the suksham sharir is now
separated from sathul sharir but does not loose its
original qualities but this suksham sharir does not
work while it was with shathul sharir. The meaning of
merger of suksham sharir is not defined that the
suksham sharir has also become Brahma and has lost his
original qualities. It is clarified by Chhandogya
upnishad 6/9/1-2 that honey bees take nectar from
different kinds of flowers/ trees but when the bee
makes honey, then it’s difficult to say that which
nectar belongs to which tree. But still it is a
materialistic example. Being separated from trees the
different nectar do not carry their own taste because
they are separated from trees. So when suksham sharir
is separated from sathul sharir, then suksham sharir
does not work as it worked with sthool sharir.
Therefore the merger (laya) does not mean to loose the
original qualities.
Ram Suri: Let us see what these sutras say. Brahma Sutra IV.2.15
(Tani pare tatha hyaha) says the following:
Tani=those; Pare=in the divine; Tatha=thus, so;
Hi=because; Aha=says (who says: the sruti says). It
means that the sense organs of him (who had
experienced the divine) are merged in divine upon this
person’s death of physical body.
Swami Ram Swarup: ORGAN:— organ do not come in suksham sharir, organs are burnt but suksham sharir can’t be burnt (Braham sutra 4/2/9 refers). Physical body is destroyed but not suksham.
Ram Suri:
In this regard, please also vide Phasna Upanishad 6.5. The essence of this Upanishad quote is that all individual identities of soul are merged in divine, and they no more will have the individual consciousness, but will attain the divine
consciousness in a similar way as rivers after merging in sea will loose their individual identities and become the sea, which is bigger in size (astangachanthi = disappears; namarupe=names and forms; bhidyate=lost). I once again request you not to look for technical words in my answers in the references I quoted. I only gave the meaning of the
reference quoted. If you keep on looking for them, then we will deviate away from our main discussion. Therefore, this sutra with Upanishad background says that subtle body and other individual identities are vanished upon merging in divine. Hence, this sutra is
not supporting your argument.
Swami Ram Swarup: And as regards river and sea I have already clarified. Please do not repeat. If required then please quote Ved mantra or upnishad or shastras’ shalok.
Ram Suri: Now let us see what Brahma Sutra IV.2.16 says. It says ‘Avibhago vachanat’. Its meaning is as follows: Avibhagah=non-distinction; Vachanat=due to the
statement of scripture.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please based on Panninni Muni’s Ashtadhyi and Mahbhashya the meaning after studying full Braham sutra 4/2/16 the meaning comes— ” AVIBHAGO VACHNAT” i.e., merger means “AVIBHAGAHA” and vachnat means
based on shastra vachan. So the meaning of Avibhagaha is that the suksham sharir is now separated from sathul sharir but does not loose its original qualities but this suksham sharir does not work while it was with shathul sharir. The meaning of merger of
suksham sharir is not defined that the suksham sharir has also become Brahma and has lost his original qualities. It is clarified by Chhandogya upnishad 6/9/1-2 that honey bees take nectar from different kinds of flowers/ trees but when the bee makes honey, then it’s difficult to say that which nectar belongs to which tree. But still it is a materialistic example. Being separated from trees the different nectar do not carry their own taste because they are separated from trees. So when suksham sharir is separated from sathul sharir, then suksham sharir does not work as it worked with sthool sharir. Therefore the merger (laya) does not mean to loose the original qualities.
Ram Suri: This sutra conveys the meaning that the soul is non-distinct with divine according to the statements made in the scriptures (Prasna Upanishad, 6.5).
Swami Ram Swarup: Atharvaveda mantra 7/80/1 says that Almighty God has unlimited kala i.e., beyond kala but soul while taking human body has to study Vedas and do Ashtang yoga etc., by which he gets 16 kalas and not unlimited kalas of Brahma. So at the time of salvation, the soul realises God and merriment. And in that merriment the
soul for the time being forgets himself but again the soul ( after merriment) attains the 16 kalas and Samadhi stage. That is why , Samkhya shastra sutra 3/78 says, “JEEVANMUKTASHCH” i.e., an alive Yogi who has attained salvation is required to preach and not alive Brahma. Otherwise Kapil Muni again says in sutra 3/81 that ” ITRATHA ANDHPARMPARA” i.e., if a yogi having knowledge of four Vedas and having Samadhi stage after practising Ashtang yoga is not alive then wrong interpretation of Ved mantras and shastras will be started i.e., a custom of blind society will start
functioning.
Ram Suri: It means that according to this Upanishad, the soul also does not possess the subtle body after merging. Again this sutra is also not supporting your argument.Why did you give these two references at all?
Swami Ram Swarup: References were given for your study and again are being given with more clarification please.
Ram Suri: You wanted to prove that soul should have a subtle body even after attaining salvation.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please. It is not possible as per description of sutras above.
Ram Suri: On the same opinion, you have argued that in the absence of subtle body, how a soul would enjoy the merriments of salvation. But, by quoting the above two
Brahma Sutras references, you have now proving my arguments unknowingly.
Swami Ram Swarup: No please. With the blessings of God, I know based on four Vedas, shastras, upnishads and other ancient Brahmin Granths. I welcome you to please study four Vedas, which is our birthright, and then think to use word “unknowingly”. I have given above the true meaning of Braham sutra and would request you to please consult with Acharya who is a philosopher of four Vedas.
Ram Suri: Now, please do not say the term ‘soul’ is not described here or the term ‘divine’ is found in this sutra. This meaning is conveyed upon the subject of the sutras of previous and later topics.
Swami Ram Swarup: The previous topic of sutra 4/2/15 is telling about merger and topic of sutra 4/2/16 is telling the meaning of merger i.e., Avibhag. And hence the
difference.
Ram Suri: Therefore, the two Brahma Sutra references quoted by you above do not support you at all, but proves the fact that there won’t be any subtle body and organs
for a soul that has merged in divine for absolute salvation. Your reply is awaited.
Swami Ram Swarup: Reply already given and has now also been given but based on four Vedas.
Ram Suri response for 1b): Sir, now please come back to your reference of Chandogyo Upanishad, 6.9.1&2, as quoted by you and asked me to look, Apparently, you
did not understand the essence of the above Chandogyo Upanishad reference. Here Uddalaka is explaining the fate of individual souls when they reach divine. Now, please read it very carefully, and do not look for individual words of my explanation in this reference. I am only giving the meaning of this reference. Therefore, I request you to read it carefully and grasp the meaning of it. In this reference, in order to make his son understand, the father gives an analogy. The analogy is related with the collection of essence of flowers by honey-bees from various flowers. The bees finally
prepare honey. Now, this honey is produced due to
collection of different essences collected from
various flowers. This honey, once made, cannot
distinguish the essence of one flower from another
flower. It means that no particular essence of a
flower can be recognized by the mass of honey. But
nevertheless, this honey is produced by the collection
of all essences from various flowers by the bees. But
after the honey is made, there is no individual
consciousness for the essences, obtained from
different flowers, to think that, “I am obtained from
so and so flower” like that. In other words, they have
no individual thinking of their essences. Because no
individual thinking is present, can we here say that
honey is not made of these essences?
Swami Ram Swarup: In dreams soul sees his past and present experienced scenes please. And hence no matter of salvation. This is a stage of a yogi who has attained samadhi (salvation) after study of Vedas and practice of Ashtang yoga. So far the period the yogi is realising God and realising merriment, he has also forgotten himself like the nectar which made honey but it does not mean that the soul of a yogi has become God. The soul after realisation would again realize himself (soul) and will remain like Vyas Muni, Guru Vashishth, Vishwamitr etc., and after a stipulated time the soul will leave his body and will remain in space in merriment at the stage of salvation. The soul will never become God.
Ram Suri: Individual essences from different flowers are
present in the honey, but once they are merged
together and formed into honey, that individuality of
each essence from different flower is vanished. In
other words, each essence will not think that “I am
collected from so and so flower” etc. Instead, they
acquire the consciousness of honey. Now, why this
analogy is said by father to his son? The reason is
that by this type of analogy, the father is implying
that that is what would happen to the individual soul
upon entry of pure divine. This may also happen
sometimes temporarily for humans in case of dream
state. But this entry is an unconscious type, and it
is temporary till the dream lasts. Upon waking up from
sleep, this is gone. It means that the soul of a
divine experienced person will enter consciously into
divine and merges, while in case of ignorant persons,
this is temporary, and upon waking up, he is still the
same ignorant person, caught in life after life in the
world. This particular Upanishad reference also
confirms my stand on this topic that after merging of
soul in divine, the individual consciousness is lost
and will have a divine consciousness. Now, please do
not say here that Vedas never say that honey has also
consciousness or Vedas did not say that honey has a
soul or soul is not made of honey etc.
Swami Ram Swarup: Yes please the materialistic examples give us
idea to understand some points but cannot be accepted
hundred percent true in case of God who has made them.
So Rishi Vyas has given the best example of bee to
understand salvation. Absorption of honey is not
forever, it will be eaten or destroyed one day.
Ram Suri: This is where one has to contemplate what is the
meaning of this reference or for that matter any other
reference. Instead, if we look for literal meaning or
technical words in the references, then we will never
understand anything in spiritualism.
Swami Ram Swarup: To know real meaning of Ved, shastra, upnishad,
Rigveda mantra 1/164/45 says that..
Ram Suri response for question 2): You have quoted
Brahma Sutra IV.4.11 (Bhavam jaiminirvikalpamananat)
to prove that soul has a subtle body.
Swami Ram Swarup: Subtle means elusive body. At the time of death,
sthool sharir is burnt and suksham sharir remains with soul always.
Ram Suri: According to this sutra, it means that Jaimini says that soul has a subtle body and organs. It is true.
The same is confirmed in Chandogya Upanishad, 7.26.2
also. But it does not mean that your argument is
correct in light of this sutra. We have to see under
what conditions the above is applied to the soul. For
that purpose, let us see Brahma Sutra IV.4.13
(Tanvabhave sandhyavadupapatteh). It means:
Tanvabhave=in the absence of (subtle) body;
Sandhyavad= like a dream state which stands midway
between waking and deep sleep; Upapatteh= this is
reasonable. The meaning of it is that in the absence
of subtle body and organs, the soul experiences the
merriments like in a dream state. Now let us see what
the immediate Brahma Sutra IV.4.14. (Bhave jagradvat)
says in this regard. According to this sutra, it is as
follows: Bhave=when the (subtle) body exists;
Jagradvat=like in waking state. The meaning of this
sutra is that in the presence of subtle body and
organs, the soul enjoys the merriments like in a
waking state. When we take both these sutras together,
it will have the meaning that a soul will have a
subtle body, and can enjoy merriments with or without
subtle body. Please remember that this soul has not
yet merged in divine for absolute salvation.
Therefore, as per these two sutras, the soul can have
a subtle body up to this point. But our aim here is to
find out the truth if the soul will have a subtle body
etc permanently even after merging in divine for
absolute salvation. Your argument that soul will
always have a subtle body is not valid here even
before this soul has merged in divine. Because, as per
IV.4.13, the soul can be without a subtle body and
organs, and still can enjoy the merriments. On the
basis of support from Chandogya Upanishad, 7.6.2, the
Brahma Sutra IV.4.15 says that this soul can also
multiply into several forms. All sutras and Upanishad
references in this regard are correct. But you missed
a very important point here, and thus have a lot of
confusion on your part. In fact this point is the very
crux of the whole topic. The soul described in Sutras
IV.4.11 to the end of the chapter, is nothing but the
one, which is not yet merged in divine for absolute
salvation. It means that those above references are
concerned with the soul that is present at that
Brahman (brought to this Brahman by amanava purusha),
and to whom Jaimini by mistake assumed to be the
supreme Brahman (Vide Brahma Sutra IV.3.12). However,
Jaimini’s assumption was refuted in sutra IV.3.14 (Na
cha karye
pratipattyabhisandhih). It means: Na=not; Cha=and;
Karye=Brahman (lower one, but not supreme nirgun
Brahman); Pratipati=realization of divine;
Abhisandhih=desire; (Pratipatti-abhisandhih=the desire
to attain or realize the divine). The meaning of this
is that the desire to attain divine cannot make the
soul to attain the lower Brahman, which is localized
at one place (as evidenced by the fact that amanava
purusha guides the soul to Brahman. It means that
amanava purusha leads the soul from a particular place
to the place of Brahman. Since this Brahman is
localized at a particular area, he is not absolute
divine). Therefore, the sutra IV.4.11 you quoted is
concerned with the soul that is still at this Brahman
(lower), and will stay there till pralaya, at which
time everything merges in divine (IV.3.10) and hence
no birth for them (Sutra IV.4.22).
Swami Ram Swarup: The jad universe is merged in prakriti and not in
divine. Please refer Rigveda mantra 1/24/1-2, which
say about rebirth.
Ram Suri: The Chandgyo Upanishad reference (7.26.2) is
concerned with Brahma Sutra IV.4.15, and is concerned
about the soul present at this Brahman (lower), and
before the pralaya. I have called this lower Brahman
as a Lord Brahma, and his place as Brahma Lok. But you
simply dismissed it without thinking properly.
Swami Ram Swarup: Braham lok as per Vedas is human body by which we can attain salvation. Braham is only one and there is no other Braham equivalent to this Braham.(Shevtashwaro upnishad 3/8 refers)
Ram Suri: After seeing confusion on your part, I am not sure
whether you know that this soul in the current topic
has reached the Brahman (not the supreme divine) by
devayani path. I am also adding one more sentence here
to make the things more clear for you. When a person
experiences divine (jeevan mukta) while living on
earth, he won’t go through devayani path. The
conclusion of all this information is that your
argument that soul has a subtle body after obtaining
absolute salvation is not true.
Swami Ram Swarup: This soul has swa sankalp sharir in his natural stage and uses eye, tongue, ear etc., during salvation (Kathopnishad)
Ram Suri: I have refuted all your arguments and understandings
in light of scriptural references and support. Do you
have any particular stand now to take? Now, please do
not say that this does not suit from Vedas or Vedas do
not believe in Upanishads. Let’s be honest. I will
wait for your reply.
Swami Ram Swarup: Brahma sutra 4/4/11—- Bhaav = to occur. Acharya Gemini accepts the suksham sharir during salvation. Chhandogya upnishad 7/26/2 says the soul in salvation becomes one type, three types, five types, nine types, eleven types etc. here the soul cannot be of so many types, so without suksham sharir it is not possible.
Baadri Acharya, father of Vyas Muni says that
during salvation, the soul with mann gets the
merriment of Moksh. So there remains soul and mann and
not indriyan ( Brahma sutra 4/4/10). Then Gemini
accepts mann and suksham sharir( 4/4/11). Vyas jee
accepts both Bhaav and abhaav (4/4/12) kathopnishad
2/6/10,11,14,15 say during salvation Mann and indriyan
remain. Yask Muni’s Shatpath Brahmin Granth kand 14
says,: in moksh the soul remains in brahm anand
(salvation) .the soul does not have body organs but
now the soul remains in his own shape with his natural
qualities. So when in salvation the soul wants to
listen then ears, to touch skin, to see eyes, to taste
tongue, to smell nose, to think mind, to determine
mind, to remember chitt and for ahankar the soul get
his own ahankar power. The soul has body based on his
own desire therefore soul attains salvation, merriment
( moksh sukh by his own desire). Kathopnishad Adh.2
walli 6 shalok 10 says, ” YAD PANCHAVATISHTHANTE
GYANANI MANSA SAHA BUDDHISHCH NA VICHESHTATE TAMAHUHU
PARMAAN GATIM” meaning when pure mann with five
perceptions ( gyan indriyan )and mind remains with
soul it is called paramgati i.e., salvation. This is
called suksham sharir. Because soul in salvation
(moksh) can never be God. If soul could be God then
soul needs not to desire, does not need ear, tongue,
skin etc., in salvation.
Ram Suri response for questions 3&4): Sir! You are
again confused here. Your earlier stand is that
salvation is meant for souls. You have also said soul
cannot do any sadhana alone, without taking the help
of a human physical body. Katha 2/6/10 reference you
quoted is concerned to a yogi (a physical body with a
soul; and doing spiritual sadhana). Now do not look
for the terms like ‘physical body or soul etc in this
reference. The summary of this reference is that when
the five senses are controlled and become motionless,
then such a state is called ‘paramapadam’. Who will
keep the senses under control and motionless? A Soul
cannot do it.
Swami Ram Swarup: Please see the meaning above.
* Topic: Do other lokas and gods exist in space?
Swamiji’s previous Ans: 1a) “IN Vedas SWARG-NARAK ARE
HERE ONLY, According to karmas. Therefore the meaning
of SWARGA in the Vedas is moksh”
1b) “One side you please accept only one God and on
the other side you say about so many Gods”
1c) “If there is only one God as Vedas say then the
God is Almighty and needs no assistance of Gods to
create,nurses and destroy the universe”
Ram Suri present response to 1a): Sir! Your
interpretation is not acceptable. There are many
instances in Gita where Lord Krishna indicated the
existence of various lokas and gods in space. Please
see Gita, and analyze carefully. You will certainly
get the answer.
Swami Ram Swarup: In Vedas lokas mean planet like sun, earth etc.,
which are there in space but controlled by only one
Almighty God.
Ram Suri present answer for 1b): I have always said
that there is only one divine. But there are many
gods. Please vide Gita, 11/6, 15, 22 slokas as a proof
to show the existence of gods.
Swami Ram Swarup: Geeta 11/6, Yajurveda mantra 40/5 says that God is everywhere in our body as well as in out of body. Similarly is the world. So a Yogeshwar like Shri Krishna is empowered to say like this. But the shalokas do not prove that God needs any help from anybody.
Ram Suri present answer for 1c): You have said that
you believe in Lord Krishna’s Gita. It means that you
believe what ever is mentioned in Gita. Now, please
see 4/6 to8 slokas to confirm that divine does come in
various forms in the world for some specific purposes.
Swami Ram Swarup: I have already told that Bhagwat Geeta is a pious and true holy book but the meaning thereof is to be briefed by a present Yogeshwar who knows Vedas. As regards Shalok 4/6 the God is immortal, takes no birth, God is eternal and creates universe. These qualities of God are true as said in this shaloka. Rigveda mantra 10/129/ 7 says that God commands on Prakriti– the non-alive. So this is true. Yajurveda
mantra 31/ 5 says that the world is Viraat and Viraat is the name of God. God is omnipresent, so is Viraat. So the creation of the God is Viraat and this is a quality of God being in form in the shape of Viraat being omnipresent. As regards shaloka 4/7-8, these are the pious personal views of Yogeshwar Shri Krishna. Yajurveda mantra 32/3 clarifies that God is always formless.
Ram Suri’s previous reply: “If they (heaven etc)
really exist on the earth itself, or if they do not
exist at all anywhere else also, then why Lord Krishna
would say, ” If you die in the battle field you will
attain heaven and enjoy there. Once the body dies,
then where is the question of enjoying anything on
earth if there is no heaven”
Swamiji’s previous answer: “Enjoyment is always gained
by soul with the help of body as per Vedas one takes
birth in house of a king or the richest or in
minister’s house etc., this is his swarg based on
previous pious deeds and he should again continue
worship and pious deeds to realise God otherwise his
swarg time will be finished like bankrupt and he will
have to face the consequences under the Vedic law by
God. Second one takes birth in a lowest and poorest
house, where thousands of problems,illness,quarrels
etc., are faced,this is his narak. Salvation is
another stage apart from swarg and narak. And is also
enjoyed by the soul through suksham sharir”
Ram Suri present answer: Your understanding about
existence of swarga is totally incorrect. Please see
Gita 6/41, wherein Lord Krishna says that an
unsuccessful yogi after enjoying at other lokas will
born in a good family, or in a rich family. Now as per
your own understanding, if this enjoyment of swarg
takes place only on Earth, (to indicate as a heaven)
that means that the unsuccessful yogi has already born
and enjoying on the Earth. Right? If it is correct,
then why Lord Krishna would say again that, “after
enjoying in other lokas, he will born in good or rich
families”? As per your understanding, he (the
unsuccessful yogi) is already born and enjoying on the
earth. Why should the word ‘abhijayate’ is used here
in this sloka? Your understanding is not matching with
the teachings of Lord Krishna in Gita, and therefore,
your claim that swarg is present only on Earth is
totally wrong sir. Also your opinion that soul enjoys
through subtle body is not 100% correct. It is only
partially correct. Soul can also enjoy in the absence
of subtle body. After merging in divine the soul will
not have any subtle body as per scriptures, shown in
my above answers. Please vide them.
Swami Ram Swarup: Loka means the body, which is attained by soul,
Yog bhrashta also attains again human body in a
repeated family where he continues his spiritual path
and this wonderful birth is due to the previous
births’ pious deeds. Mainly the loka means the body
(birth) here.
Swamiji’s previous response: “IN Vedas SWARG-NARAK ARE
HERE ONLY, According to karmas. Therefore the meaning
of SWARGA in the Vedas is moksh”
Ram Suri present response: Sir! I have noticed many
contradicting statements in your answers.
Contradictions arise due to lack of proper
understanding of the scriptures. In your above answer
too, you are making two contradicting statements. One
side you are saying that swarg is present on the earth
itself, thus ruling out the possibility of a separate
existence for swarg in space. On the other hand, you
are saying that the meaning of swarg, as per Vedas is
moksh. Let us see how the term swarg is applied to
Gita 2/37 sloka in terms of salvation as per your
understanding of Vedas. Here, Lord Krishna says to
Arjun that, “if you die in the battle field, then you
will go to heaven and enjoy there”. “On the other
hand, if you win the battle, then you will enjoy the
kingdom”. Here, as per your understanding,
swarg=salvation. It means that if Arjun dies in the
battle field, he would go to swarg, that is, he will
get salvation. But I do not agree with this, because,
at that point of time (in the war), Arjun is not
qualified to get salvation, even though he is a good
person, and a good friend of Lord Krishna. How do we
know it? Before going to the answer, let us understand
few things first. Controlling of mind and senses is
highly required for anyone for attaining salvation.
Now, please see 6/34 Gita sloka, where Arjun is saying
that mind is very strong and turbulent, and difficult
than controlling of air. From this it is clear that
Arjun doesn’t have complete control over his mind at
the time of war also. Since without controlling mind
etc, it is not possible to attain salvation, it means
that Arjun is not qualified to get salvation at the
time of war. But because Lord Krishna says, “If you
die in the war, you will go to swarg to enjoy”, under
this context, swarg cannot be equal to salvation.
Therefore, according to your understanding the term
swarg is not equal to salvation (moksh). Then what is
the meaning of swarg? You have an opinion that swarg
is only present on earth. But this is also wrong.
Because, as per Gita 9/20, Indra, the king of gods is
present, and thus swarg is also present as per the
same rule. Therefore, swarg is a place for enjoyment
in space. It is not good to aim heaven if some one is
spiritually inclined.
Ram Suri’s previous reply: “In Gita, many instances
are quoted to confirm the existence of different gods
and lokas. For example, 8/16 clearly indicates the
existence of various lokas, the highest lok being the
Brahma lok in space”
Swamiji’s previous answer: “Geeta shalok 8/16 is based
on the knowledge of yajurveda mantra 31/3, wherein it
is mentioned that from one part (padah) of the God the
universe is created having three lokas which are
destroyed but above all three padah purushah (God)
amritam divi i.e., immortal and above three lokas”
Ram Suri present reply: Good, and I accept. But you
did not answer whether you accept the existence of
Brahma Lok as per Gita 8/16 or not. Therefore, your
above answer is incomplete. Please clarify if you
accept the existence of Brahma Lok as per 8/16.
Swamiji’s previous answer: “Braham lok means where
Braham lives according to Yajurveda mnatra 40/1. It is
said,”ISHAWASYAM IDAM SARVAM YAT KINCH JAGATTYAAM
JAGAT” here two jagats arethere.1. JAR JAGAT (THREE
LOKAS) 2. Chetan jagat (souls) the God lives in these
jagats,so these are Braham loka”
Swami Ram Swarup: As I already told the swarg- narak is only on
the earth. To get birth in human life, based on
previous pious deeds and to enjoy with every goods is
swarg and to get birth in a poor family and to bear
miseries etc., is a narak but in salvation to get the
merriment is another swarg. So it is not
contradictory. Geeta shalok 2/37 is also based on
Saamveda mantra 1409 that a warrior if dies in war
attains salvation (moksh). So Geeta is only understood
after studying Vedas, as also said by Shri Krishna
that He is Saamveda in four Vedas. (Geeta shalok
10/22) So Arjuna though was not a yogi at the time of
war and was also not able to attain salvation but Shri
Krishna, a philosopher of four Vedas and Yogeshwar is
telling, based on Saamveda mantra 1409 that a warrior
and not a Yogi here is competent to get salvation.
This shalok (10/22) is also based on Atharvaveda
mantra 10/7/20, “SAMANI YASYA LOMANI TAM SKAMBHAM
BRUHI” i.e., whose Saamveda mantras are like body
pores, He is God and God has no body pores. But the
mantras meaning is that the power who has preached
Upasana kand in Saamveda, He is God. So to know about
Yogeshwar Krishna, one will have to worship God
according to Saamveda.
In Vedas, Indra means God according to situation and
Indra means a man who controls his indriyan (senses,
perceptions and mind). That is why Rigveda says,”
INDRAHA SOM PEETYE” i.e., a Yogi who controls his
indriyan, he drinks SOM and SOM means the experience
of merriment of realising God. So Geeta shalok 9/20,21
etc., say the philosophy of four Vedas that the man
who follows the path of Rigveda (knowledge), Yajurveda
(karmas-deeds), and Saamveda( Upasana-worship-Yoga
etc.,) he realises God in salvation i.e., drinks SOM.
As also said in Rigveda mantra 10/119/1-13 about
drinking of SOM. And comes back, according to Rigveda
mantra 1/24/1,2. I would request you to please go
through the Vedas because Vedas are not based on Geeta
but Geeta is based on Vedas. Even all shastras etc.,
are based on four Vedas.
Ram Suri present reply: So, as per your above
understanding, those souls attained this lok (Braham –
from your above answer) will also come back to samsar
to take birth after birth. Because, Lord Krishna in
8/16 says that attainment up to the so called, ‘Brahma
Lok’ you have described above is also subjected to
return to the samsar to take birth after birth. That
means, as per your understanding, attaining of this
divine (that is, god, as you call him) is also subject
to return to samsar for birth. Please think over it
again.
Ram Suri’s previous answer: “If it is so, then why
would Lord Krishna say that who so ever understands
1000 yugas as a day and another 1000 yugas as a night
for Lord Brahma would understand the real meaning of
day and night (8/17)”
Swami Ram Swarup: Shashtra says Fundamental law of God can never
be changed. Rigveda mantra 10/190/3 says, ” SURYA
CHANDRMASAU DHATA YATHAPURVAMKALPYAT”
Means the sun, moon, earth etc., of this universe are
same as of the previous destructed universe, so is
about the rules and regulations when four Vedas have
not told about any swarg- narak in space, so the
fundamental law can not be changed.
I have already clarified about
Braham lok, that the body of human being is Braham lok
where soul realises God. God means the only God who
has unlimited qualities with creation, nursing,
destruction and again creation etc., and no one else
has these qualities. Brahma—-God never comes back to
Sansaar, as you said, but God creates sansaar and
becomes omnipresent. As regards 1000 yugas as a day
etc., as per Geeta shalok 8/17 it is related to
creation and destruction i.e.,
one Brahma day = the period of one creation and Brahma ratri is a period of
destruction.
17,280,00 years = one satyug,
12,960,00 years = Treta,
8,640,00 years = dwapur and
4,320,00 years of Kalyug.
When these four yugas (periods) are passed once in 1000 time, then it is called one Braham Din. And similarly the Braham ratri.
Swamiji’s previous answer: “It is in accordance with Rigveda mandal 10, Manu smriti 1/64 to 75, Please relating to creation and counting of duration of the earth only”
Ram Suri present answer: Your understanding is wrong
sir again. Please see Gita 8/17&19 slokas. The time
periods described above do not refer to earth. Please
be realistic while claiming anything. In 8/16, Lord
Krishna refers Lord Brahma, in 17th sloka, in
continuation from 16th sloka, Lord Krishna compares
the time period with respective to this Lord Brahma.
Please see 18th sloka, where Lord Krishna talks about
creation and destruction of universe during day and
night time of Lord Brahma. In all these slokas,
reference of Lord Brahma is continuously used. I would
like to give you a clue, who this Lord Brahma is. He
is the one to whom the soul is taken to by amanava
purusha. He is the same chatur muk Brahma, who sits in
a Lotus flower also. But I know that you won’t believe
in the existence of Lord chatur muk Brahma.
Therefore, I request you to see Gita 11/15 sloka,
where Arjun says having seen many gods, Rishis, Lord
Brahma in Lotus flower etc in the Universal form of
Lord Krishna (divine). Can you please think your above
answer in light of this information, and let me know
your opinion on this. In addition to the above
information and references, I am quoting the following
references for your convenience to prove the existence
of other lokas and gods.
Swami Ram Swarup: As regards Uttaryan, Dakshinayan and description
of yugas etc., please refer chapter 1 and shaloka 64
to 75 also of Manu Smriti, which clarify the day of
Braham etc. So this is regarding calculation of time
of the yugas and does not say about any separate loka
or Brahma. So the reference of Rigveda mandal 10 sukta
129 is about creation and Manu Smriti 1/64-75 is
regarding day of Brahma i.e., duration of the earth
clarified above and it was correct please but I do not
know why you consider it incorrect. So I would again
request you to please study Rigveda mandal 10 about
creation by God from Prakriti and mention of souls
too. And Manu Smriti shalok 1/64-75 please regarding
Brahma ka Din. Actually the words used by Vyas Muni in
Bhagwat Geeta are all from four Vedas and until we
study the Vedas, the meaning cannot be understood
properly.
Ram Suri: 3/11: Lord Krishna says, ” If you (people) please the
gods (remember here, not divine – but gods) by doing
so and so activities, the gods in turn will please
you” From this it is clear that gods do really exist.
Swami Ram Swarup: I already clarified from Shatpath Brahmin Granth of Yask Muni that the meaning of Dev that its meaning is he who ahs studied four Vedas and has done practice of Ashtang yoga. So the meaning of Dev-Deva-Devan etc., (according to Sanskrit Vyakarann — SUPTINGANTAM PADAM) mentioned in shalok ; in English
may be Gods, but sense cannot be changed, sense will remain. He (Vidwan Acharya) who knows Vedas and not any other Dev, who lives in swarg etc., and from “Yaj” dhatu “DEVPUJA,, SANGTIKARANN,DAAN” is made which means we must obey the Dev, and by doing Yajna and service we must please the Deva (Acharya) and this is the path of our well-being.
Ram Suri: 4/1: Lord Krishna says, “I instructed this yoga to sun god, who in turn instructed to ..” From this it is clear that there is a god of sun. One may say here that the name sun does not refer to ‘Surya god’ whom we think, but it may refer to a king or a great person in the history. This notion is wrong, because, in 4/4, from Arjun’ s question, it is clear that the term ‘sun’ does not refer to a king or any great person.
4/25: Lord Krishna says, “some yogis worship gods ..”
It is clear from this statement that gods also exist.
Swami Ram Swarup: In Vedas, there are five kinds of Yagya (Yajna) —
Brahma Yagya = to listen preach of Vedas,
Dev Yagya = to worship God by Agnihotra,
Baliveshwa Dev Yagya = to offer part of food that is prepared daily
in kitchen, to animals, birds etc.,
Atithi Yagya = to serve Him, who is wise knowing Vedas, and
Pitar Yagya = services to a Yogi/Rishi who knows traditional knowledge about creation from Vedas.
So in this shlok 4/25, Dev Yagya is being advised . Vedas are proof, so the meaning is true. In Yajurveda 31/16 it is too said, “DEVAHA YAJYEN YAJYAM AA YAJANT” means that Devaha (philosopher of Vedas) worship God by performing Yajna. Yaskacharya says in his Shatpath Brahmin Granth that, “YAJAU VAI SHRESHTHATAMAM KARMAHA: i.e., Yagya is the best worship and the best
pious deed in the universe.
Ram Suri: 4/31: Lord Krishna says, “without sacrifice one cannot live happily in this lok or any other lok ..” From this it is clear that different lokas really exist.
Swami Ram Swarup: This Geeta shlok 4/31 is based on Atharvaveda mantra 8/2/1 wherein it is mentioned that we must eat “IMAAM AMRITASYA SHNUSHTIM” = Yagya (Yajna) shesham Amritam i.e., the last left over part of food of a performed Yagya etc., to gain long, happy life without violence and this shlok also has the same meaning please and does not tell about any lokas. So here the loka means the present human body and the other lokas mean the bodies, which will be awarded by God according to our karmas in the next birth.
Ram Suri: 6/40: Lord Krishna says, “people doing pious activities will never be destroyed either in this world or other world .,.” This also shows the existence of different lokas.
Swami Ram Swarup: Here also the meaning of lokas are same. “Eha” word is based on Ved mantras like Yajurveda mantra 40/2, so Eha means “here in this lok” (The earth) and “Amutr” means in next lok i.e., next birth on the earth. So Vedas clearly say that he, who has done pious deeds according to Vedas will not meet with sorrows, difficulties, poverty or the bodies of the animals etc.
Ram Suri: 6/41: Lord Krishna says, “an unsuccessful yogi will reach the pious entities lokas for enjoyment .” This also confirms the existence of different lokas.
Swami Ram Swarup: Same as above. I.e., loka means the body which is received in the next birth and earth also is a loka, because we can not ignore the basic principle of
Vedas that in the space there are so many planets which are also under the command and control of one Almighty God. But the swarg lokas where God’s like Indra etc., live, this is not told by Vedas, please study Vedas.
Ram Suri: 7/20: Lord Krishna says, “. people with materialistic desires will worship gods .” This shows the existence of different gods.
Swami Ram Swarup: Here the meaning of different Dev is other than God and in Yajurveda mantra 40/9 it is said that those who do not worship God but worship other than God, they go to darkness, i.e., they take next birth in animal/bird’s bodies etc. So the worship other than God is sin, is being taught by Shri Krishna here. Please see that Yaskacharya has told the meaning of Dev as I already mentioned above. But in Vedas, one word has so many meanings according to situation. For example, Indra means Yogi and Indra means God also etc. for example, in Sanskrit, “payaha” means milk and water too. So exact meaning of payaha will be according to situation. So is the case of Dev etc.
Ram Suri: 7/22: Lord Krishna says, “I fulfill their desires through these gods.”
Swami Ram Swarup: The meaning must have the fundamental law of Vedas. Yajurveda chapter 40, mantras 9 to 12 state that he who worship other than one Almighty God or materialistic world then they are merged with illusion and get sorrows etc. So the meaning of this shlok comes that he who worships other than God he gets the result as per Vedas, i.e., bad result. When Shri Krishna says that those who go to Shri Krishna, they only get peace, then how Shri Krishna will say that those who go to other than Krishna they will also be benefited by other Dev. So no other Gods please, God being Almighty and independent.
Ram Suri: 7/23: Lord Krishna says, “People of less intelligence worship gods for materialistic gains ..” This clearly shows the existence of different gods.
Swami Ram Swarup: Here Shri Krishna says the result of worship other than God, those people get death etc. at the time of Geeta, the karma kand to worship different types of Devtas had been started and Shri Krishna warns not to worship those Devaha.
Ram Suri: 8/16 – 19: Lord Krishna says, “attainment up to Brahma
Lok ; terms like Brahma are found..” This confirms the existence of Lord Brahma ji.
Swami Ram Swarup: Brahm lok means human body where by real sadhna God is realised. If not then next body is given which is called next loka or perlok and loka means the bodies of animals, birds etc., and this lok also throws light that all those lokas are of death and birth. Some people say that there is no other Braham lok then too the existence of other lokas must not be there.
Ram Suri: 9/20: Lord Krishna says, “.. attains heaven of Indra
for enjoyments .” This confirms the existence of Indra, the king of gods, in the heaven.
9/21: Lord Krishna says, “people who are after the
sensual pleasure will go to heavens and then finally
returns to this mundane world ..” This confirms the
existence of heaven and the fate of the souls after.
9/23 – 24: Lord Krishna says, “people who worships
other gods with faith actually worship me only ., but
the worship is not recognized .” This also confirms
the existence of gods.
9/25: Lord Krishna says, “people who worships gods
will attain gods, those who worships to ancestors will
attain them, those who worships spirits will attain
them . ” This confirms the existence of gods,
ancestors, spirits separately.
Swami Ram Swarup: Based on four Vedas I have already mentioned thirty non-alive devas and five alive devas. And the same is also mentioned in Yagvalkya and Gargi discussion accordingly the meaning comes that those who are worshipping, “Prititva” i.e., mother, father; who are worshipping bhoot i.e., five matters, they are awarded accordingly and those who are worshipping God they only realise God. So the fundamental of this shlok is whatever type of worship is done, accordingly the award is given by Almighty God.
Ram Suri: 10/2 – 3: Lord Krishna says, “even gods … do not
know .., ; I am the lord of all worlds” This is very
conclusive evidence to show that there are different
lokas in the space.
Swami Ram Swarup: In Vedas there are so many mantras like Rigveda mantra 5/51/13, ” VISHVEDEVA NO ADYA SWASTYE” deva = Vidwan Acharya who knows Vedas. Vishve = all, therefore Vishvedeva = may all Acharya shower their blessings for our happy life. Based on the Ved mantra Shri Krishna here says that the dev (Acharyas who has not realised yet) with their disciples even do not know me about ganna, Rigveda mantra 5/51/12 says, BRISPATIM SARVGANNAM” Brispati = brihad+ pati, in Vedas here brihad means having the biggest knowledge of four Vedas and pati means master, ganna means jannganana i.e., counting of disciples/ followers. In this shlok Suraha = dev and gannah = followers. So the meaning is accordingly please. That is why I am telling again and again to please study Vedas since Geeta is a preach from Shri Krishna based on four Vedas.
Ram Suri: 10/12 – 15: Arjun uses the names, “great sages like Narad, gods, demons etc.,” This confirms the existence of sage Narad – the son of Lord Brahma (the chatur muk Brahma), gods, and demons; and says, “you are the god of gods” to Lord Krishna.
Swami Ram Swarup: In Valmiki Ramayan Bal kand Pratham sarg shlok 13, Valmiki says to Shri Ram that Prajapati Samaha i.e., equivalent to God. In Rigveda mantra 1/67/3 the qualities of God have been described and the same description is seen in Yajurveda mantra 7/4-8 ,so is the case of Shri Krishna Mahraj.
Ram Suri: 10/22 – 39: Lord Krishna says, “I am Indra among gods; among of demons, I am lord of wealth; I am Bruhaspathi (the priest of Indra), I am Kumar Swamy; I am Narad; among Gandhrvas, I am Chitradha; among the elephants, I am Airavata; among weapons, I am thunderbolt; among cows, I am Kamadenuv (Surabhi); I am Vasuki; I am god f love; I am Ananta; I am Varuna; I am Aryama; I am Yama; I am sri Krishna; I am Arjun, I am Sukracharya; All these highlight the existence of the following: Indra – the king of gods, having thunderbolt as his weapon, has a Airavata, and has Bruhaspathi as his chief priest. Similarly, the existence of Narad, Kumarswamy, Kamadenuv, Gandharvas, Vasuki, Ananta, Varun, yama, ancestral beings, Sukracharya is proven beyond any doubt.
Swami Ram Swarup: Here the highest stage Vibhuti-dignity is being mentioned. There are four Vedas but Saamveda is the highest etc. As regards Indra I have already told above.
Ram Suri: 11/6: Lord Krishna says, ” see Adityas, Vasus, Rudras, Aswani gods, Marut etc., This means that these personalities are existing in the space.
Swami Ram Swarup: These all words are mentioned in Vedas i.e.,
Aditya =1.sun 2. Unbreakable,
Vasus– 8 vasus like earth, air, space etc., which give place to live (vasna) that is why these are called vasu.
Rudra— rulanewala i.e., he, who
suppress us to weep, these are rudras.
Aswinau = prann and apan, so these all are existing on earth and earth is in space.
Ram Suri: 11/15: Arjun says, ” all gods, whole universe, Lord Brahma sitting in Lotus flower (the chtur muk Brahma) all sages, all divine serpents” It confirms the existence of gods, divine serpents, chtur muk Brahma.
11/20: Arjun says, “. all three lokas trembled with
fear” This confirms the existence of various lokas.
Swami Ram Swarup: Similar as above.
Ram Suri: 11/22: Arjun describes various gods, like, Rudras, Adityas, Vasus, viswa devas, Aswanis, Marutas, fore fathers, Gandhrvas, Yakhas, Siddhas, Asuras. It means that they exist really.
Swami Ram Swarup: Explained above please.
Ram Suri: 11/26 – 27: Arjun says, “Bhisma, Drona, Karna etc. are also seen in divine form of Lord Krishna. It should be noted here that Bhisma, Drona etc are living
actually at that time of Gita discourse in the battlefield, and hence they are shown in the divine form. Similarly, when different gods etc are shown in the divine form, it means that they also really exist.
Swami Ram Swarup: Similar as above.
Ram Suri: 11/37 & 39: Arjun says, “you are the god of gods, even
Lord Brahma also does not know your beginning, your
are air, yama, fire, varun, moon, Brahma. This
confirms the existence of gods and Lord Brahma.
Swami Ram Swarup: Explained above please.
Ram Suri: 11/43: Arjun says, “In all three worlds no one equal to you, hence no one is greater than you” This confirms the existence of different worlds.
Swami Ram Swarup: Explained above please.
Ram Suri: 11/52: Lord Krishna says, “even gods want this opportunity to see the divine form” This confirms the existence of gods.
Swami Ram Swarup: Similar as above.
Ram Suri: 14/14 & 18: Lord Krishna says, “Persons who die during
the development of satva gun will attain the lokas of great sages. This confirms the existence of different lokas.
Swami Ram Swarup: Explained as above please.
Ram Suri: 17/4: Lord Krishna says, “people with satwa gun
worships gods, with rajo gun worships Yakhawas and
demons, while people with tamo gun worship spirits” From this it is clear that gods, yakhaws, demons and spirits exist.
Swami Ram Swarup: Similar as above.
Ram Suri: 17/28: Lord Krishna says, ” . if done without faith on divine, it is a waste in this life and other loka” This confirms the existence of different lokas.
Swami Ram Swarup: Explained as above please.
Ram Suri: 18/40: Lord Krishna says, “no body either on the earth, or heaven (gods) are free from trigunas” This confirms the existence of gods.
Swami Ram Swarup: So the meaning of shlokas are only acceptable based on Vedas, please. So please study Vedas.
Ram Suri:
See the above all references from Gita. It is quite
enough to prove that existence of gods, different
lokas, which you have dismissed without thinking much.
Can you or me or someone else say that Lord Krishna is
fooling Arjun by saying the existence of other lokas
or gods if they do not really exist? No one can
imagine that. This is where the intense faith on
divine is highly essential. Because no such things
called ‘lokas’ are seen to our naked eyes in the
space, it does not mean that the universe is just
empty. Other lokas are present in different space-time
dimensions. We all live in four-dimensional world. The
universe is not going to end up at just with four
dimensions. Therefore, from the above references from
Gita, it is crystal clear that different types of gods
and lokas exist. Only thing it requires is that one
has to open up the antennas to perceive the truths. I
will wait for your reply.
Swami Ram Swarup: The planets exist as I have already told but the
lokas and Deva do not exist, as per Vedas please. I
have several times told that Shri Krishna has not
preached Geeta. If he could then he had to study Geeta
first and then preach. In fact, Shri Krishna studied
four Vedas and did ashtang Yoga practice with sakha
Sudama, in the ashram of Rishi Sandeepan. Yaskacharya
in his Shatpath Brahmin Granth says— ” MANTRADRISHTA
ITI RISHIHI ” i.e., he who looks ved mantras in his
heart by virtue of studying Vedas and hard Ashtang
yoga practice, he is a Rishi. Shri Krishna also did
so. So at the time of war, the preach delivered by
Shri Krishna is based on the knowledge of four Vedas,
learnt by Shri Krishna from his Guru. Bhagwat Geeta is
an extract of Bhisham Parva and has been named Bhagwat
Geeta and fully accepted heartily. So to know the real
meaning of Geeta, we have to study four Vedas and in
the Vedas, there is no mention of any lok where Devta
rules.
* Topic: Does the soul merge in divine for absolute
salvation? Or remain separate from divine forever and
enjoy merriments?
Swamiji’s reply: Swamiji’s previous reply in CAPITAL
LETTERS):
1. “YES PLEASE SOUL IS SEPARATE AND ALMIGHTY GOD IS
SEPARATE”
2. “FOUR Vedas NEVER SAYS ABOUT ANY TEMPORARILY
DISTICTION AND IT IS NOT POSIBLE TOO”, “this
difference is eternal and can not be changed”
I.E., AFTER BURNING ALL THE KARMAS THE SOUL REALISES
GOD AND GETS MOKSH”
4b. “AFTER BURNING ALL THE
KARMAS THE SOUL REALISES GOD AND GETS MOKSH”
5. “Salt is dissolved in water but ever will remain
salt”
Ram Suri response for 1, 2, 3 and 4a questions: Sir!
As per your understanding, soul and divine are
different permanently. Can you please tell me who has
given this difference between the souls and divine to
exist? You may say that it is mentioned in Vedas. What
is the guarantee that you have understood the Vedas
accurately? Vedas are revealed in enlightened sages
very, very long back. It means that Vedas are from
divine. When divine does not have either “SANKALP OR
VIKALP”, then how could divine make these differences
to exist when both divine and souls are unborn and
have no death? There should be a time point where the
difference between divine and the souls should start.
When there is no time point for their birth or death,
then how do their differences would
exist at all? Let us see what Brahma Sutras say in
this regard. [IV.1.19 – Bhogenatvitare kshapayitva
sampadyate. That is: Bhogena=by enjoyment (of karma);
Tu=but; Itare=of the other two works (merits and
demerits or puny and sin); Kshapayitva=having
exhausted;
Swami Ram Swarup: Why one should be afraid of Vedas? The base of
whole Geeta is Vedas, then why don’t you study the Vedas, as I have. Why are you challenging me and this is not a way to discuss the truth. I have told you that he who knows Vedas is a present Dev and there are so many Dev in India. Please go and study Vedas first. Do you think that eternal knowledge of Vedas is finished now that is why you have given your comments on Vedas that Vedas are revealed in enlightened sages
very long back. The Vedas are world’s culture, originated in the heart of Rishis, direct from God about one arab, 96 crore, 8 lakhs and 53 thousands years back. It is clear that during that time no books, or sects of present time came into existence. Therefore Vedas are applicable for all human beings, today also. Vedas are not sects. For a long time we
have been slaves of Mugals and Britishers, which has effected our Vedas knowledge badly. I remember that when Aurangjeb started burning of our Vedas and hand written holy books by the ancient Rishis, then for more than six months, our culture of Vedas etc., kept in Nalanda and Takshila Universities had been burning continuously , then our Brahmin started learning Vedas by heart. That is why Vedi, Divedi, Tripathi, saved the Vedas and called Vedi (learnt one ved by heart) and so on Divedi and Trivedi. The culture was continued to be burnt during that period. Most respected His Holiness a Acharya named Baannbhatt was going and he heard a weeping voice of a lady. He
knocked the door and entered the house and asked the reason of weeping. The lady replied to Baannbhatt that Vedas have been burnt, so now who will give the preach of Vedas to human beings. Acharya Baannbhatt replied, O, Mother do not weep, I am still alive and know whole Vedas by heart. So Vedas can’t be finished/ destroyed by any bad element. It has been a bad tendency of some Gurus against the Vedas. They mostly say Vedas are karma kand, Vedas are difficult and have turned the people to listen to them, (present Saint who are against the Vedas) and leave the Vedas and Yajna. So now it has been our duties to study and spread the knowledge of Vedas to human beings. Secondly if the Bhagwat Geeta could have been written by present saints then it was not needed to tally Bhagwat Geeta to Vedas. But it is written by Muni Vyas and his 100% views in Bhagwat Geeta are from Vedas. So every word of the Bhagwat Geeta has the meaning and secret of Vedas. But to our bad luck the comments on Geeta are being written mostly by those who are always away from the knowledge of Vedas, giving their own views and
even against the Vedas, Geeta contains Vedic knowledge please. Is it not a wonder that even uneducated and educated from college etc., are giving comments on Geeta? So bundle of personnel’s are there, who have written comments on Geeta but Where are those who dare to study Vedas and give comments on Vedas? Those respected personnel are very few and your comments therefore to me, ” not to know the real meaning of Vedas” usually tally with the present saints, who are against Vedas. So please first study Vedas which will give you a long happy life.
The moksh is attained by a alive yogi. But he
waits till he leaves body. Moksh is not attained after
death, also says Kapil Muni in his shastra sutra 3/78
otherwise who will give the experience of moksh to
the people. That is why Rigveda mantra 10/154/1
advises that one should study Vedas from a Rishi to
achieve good qualities and moksh. Rigveda 10/142/6
says that God which is worshipped by Ved mantras,
then the sins of past life etc., are burnt forever.
That is why Rigveda mantra 1/67/3 says that Yogi/
Rishi is equivalent to God. But now a days mostly all
saints, not having Vedas’ knowledge are telling
themselves Braham Rishis, or God. From Vedas knowledge/Yoga etc., one is considered equivalent to God but not God.
To know this fact you will have to go to a present
Dev. Please go and study first. Vedas are eternal and
traditional and therefore are known a t present also.
Traditionally. Vedas tell about sankalp or vikalp of
God said by you in your question and IKSHANN to create
universe. How can any body tell you on computer? This
is not traditional way. Have you studied your
advaitwad on computer or on telephone? So is the case
of Vedas please. I hope you will put up questions
after studying the Vedas please.
Ram Suri: Sampadyate=becomes united (with divine)]. The meaning
of this sutra is that after having completed the
facing of karmas of both types (puny and sin), the
soul becomes one with divine. Close analysis would
reveal here the follow: Here, the terms, ‘Bhogena’
means enjoy (not merriment type of enjoys – I hope you
understand this difference) that is to face the
karmas. Who will face the karmas? A soul alone cannot
face the karmas. Similarly, a dead body cannot face
the consequences of the karmas. When the soul resides,
then the physical body faces the karmas. Right? All
living ordinary persons are performing the karmas, and
enjoying their consequences. But this sutra uses the
term ‘sampadyate’, meaning ‘becoming’. All ordinary
persons (doing no sadhana) or their souls cannot be
applied with this term (as they will take birth).
Therefore, this term, “sampadyate’, in this sutra
should be understood as concerned about the fate of a
jeevan mukta’s soul after death essentially. Please
understand it very carefully. As per this sutra, the
soul in the physical body of a jeevan mukta after
divine experience will also wait till the karma
(prarabdha karma) is faced. Once, prarabdha karma
becomes zero, then the physical body dies, and as per
the rule of this sutra, the soul will become united in
divine for absolute salvation. In this regard,
Chandogya Upanishad,7.14.2) says that, there is some
delay for him (jeevan mukta) till he is released from
the physical body”. Once the physical body of this
jeevan mukta dies, after karma= zero, then as per
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 4.4.6, this soul will merge
in divine. Even in Mundaka Upanishad 3.28, also
confirms the same by giving an example of merging of
rivers in sea. Merging of soul in divine will make to
loose the individual consciousness and acquiring
divine consciousness, like a river after merging in
sea
