Maha Mritunjaya Mantra (Yajurveda 3/60 & Rigveda 7/59/12)

This mantra is mentioned in Yajurveda chapter 3 mantra 60 and Rigveda mandal 7 sukt 59 mantra 12. The mantra is "TREYAMBAKAM YAJAMAHE SUGANDHIM PUSHTIVARDHNAM URVARUKMIV BANDHNANMRITYORMUKSHIY MAMRITAT" (Rigveda 7/59/12).

Meaning:
Sugandhim = having fame, pushtivardhnam = who increases powers, treyambakam = who save us in past, present and future, yajamahe = we worship that God, urvarukmiv = like ripened musk melon, bandhnat = from binding, mrityoh= from death, mukshiy = to be free, amritat= from salvation, ma, aa= not.

Full meaning:

Who should be considered next to GOD?

In Shatpath Brahmin Granth 3/7/3/10, written by Yask Muni it is said, "VIDWANS HI DEVAHA" i.e., he who is learned of Vedas, he is called Dev. Yajurveda mantra 40/3 says, "ASURYA NAAM TE LOKAHA ANDHEN TAMSA VRITAHA_______" means while taking birth a child is called "Manushya" i.e., mankind. If he learns Vedas, does pious deeds and discharges his moral duties well and according to Vedas then he becomes Dev. Otherwise asur i.e., devil (demon), one who kills the pure voice of soul and does sins.

Adwaitvad - questions and answers - July 03, 2004

Swamiji's previous reply: So first to be a learned of Vedas and knower of five fires or a sanyasi who lives in a dense jungle and does worship with trust, is necessary.
Ram Suri present reply: Living in a dense jungle for worship of divine with trust is not necessary please.
Swami Ramswarup: To come to truth the proof of Vedas is necessary (Rigveda mantra 1/55/4 and Yoga shastra sutra 1/7). Sutra 1/15,16 of Yoga shastra wants asceticism and who is ascetic he leaves everything. His senses are controlled. If any body on the earth is ascetic in accordance with the said Yoga shastras sutra and Ved mantra, he is adorable otherwise there remains only matter of talking as said in sutra 1/23 and Keno Upanishad shlok 4/8. So please quote every time the proof of Ved mantra in support of your views, which has, yet not been done by you. So Please quote any Ved mantra where asceticism or going to jungle has not been accepted by a sanyasi as said in Br. Up.6/2/15 also. Previously I quoted Br. Up. 6/2/15 that a sanyasi has to go to jungle. On study of the said Upanishad, it is a requirement of Upanishad and not mine but I accept the requirement of Upanishad. Vedas have told four ashram, brahmacharya, grisath, Vanprasth and Sanyas . Amongst the same, only gristhashram used to be situated in cities and remaining in jungle. Shri Krishna attained Vedas' education in jungle in Sandeepan Rishi's Gurukul. Shri Ram used to go on the bank of river Saryu in lonelyjungle to the ashram of Vashisth Muni. Every Gurukul for the last one Arab and more than 96 crore years i.e., up to Mahabhart period was situated in jungle and aspirants used to go to jungle to the Gurukul to take education not of holy Upanishad, Geeta, shastra,Ramayana, etc., but of Vedas only because at that time these holy books had not been written. So this tradition if has been changed at present, it makes no difference to the culture but has changed the views of ancient and eternal Indian religious paths by those who are not serious about Vedas' path i.e., their own way and they are free for the same too. So it is, even now, necessary to go to jungle if there is any Gurukul situated there, if not, then anybody can go anywhere to get the Vedas' knowledge.

Ram Suri: Please note that Lord Krishna did not teach Gita to some one who lived in dense jungle. In other words..
Swami Ramswarup: Vyas Muni did tapsya in a lonely jungle and in island called Krishan Dweep but after getting salvation he spread it amongst Raj Rishis like Pandavas etc., in cities also and so is the case of Shri Krishna who got Vedic education in a jungle and taught Geeta in city.

Ram Suri: it is not that where you are living, but it is how you are living', that is required for worship of divine.
Swami Ramswarup: I had been living in dense jungle and I have still made my ashram in jungle in 1979 as yet it is a backward area in spite of some improvement by Govt. Where I lived and am living now normally snakes and wild creatures are seen here. But I am not aware of you as to where you live because you may be satisfied with your living please. As regards computer, it is functioning by my disciple about 500 km away from me. As far as my disciples are concerned they are happy satisfied with the Vedic culture and I need not to quote anything about them. They respectfully and pleasantly come to me to get Veda and yoga education, from abroad also, but I do not try to go to them now.

Ram Suri: Sri Rama Krishna Parama Hamsa did not read Vedas nor did he live in dense jungle nor did he practice astange yoga.
Swami Ramswarup: I never thought about Shri Ramakrishna Paramhansa and Gandhi ji but if you say that they got salvation, it may be correct at your end please. Because I have no time to check salvation of others. But I respect all.

Ram Suri: But he is the great person who experienced divine. Similarly, Mahatma Gandhi did not live dense jungle nor read Vedas nor practiced astanga yoga. But he also got salvation. How do we know that he got salvation? He died by uttering of divine's name, and as per Gita 8/5 he got the salvation. How he got divine's name suddenly at the time of sudden death? He remembered divine's name at all the time. In other words, his mind is always tuned to divine, but his hands are in the society, meaning that even though he is discharging his karma, he is doing so for the sake of divine, and thus able to remember divine at the time of sudden death also. From the above two examples, it is clear that one does not need to be in dense jungle in order to have faith and worship divine.
Swami Ramswarup: So this is your own view to deny jungle or a lonely place or a sanyasi and ascetic, which is but natural and Vedas do not deny the same. But if in cities it is possible to realize God according to Vedas. Then it is okay please. Because now a days it is beyond imagination that anybody will go to jungle yet on this pious land of India the jungles are still used by some ascetics for meditation.

Ram Suri: If you are still not convinced with the above examples, then I would like to ask few simple questions. Is your ashram located in dense jungle also? It will be difficult for me to imagine, as it is difficult to have Internet access in your ashram indense jungle in India. Do all your disciples know Vedas and five fires? Where do they live? Do they live in dense jungle or do they live in towns or cities in India? When you are saying that living in dense jungle is required for reading of Vedas or worship of divine, then I believe that you also preach the same thing to your disciples also. Right? If so, then do they live in dense jungle, read Vedas, practice astanga yoga and five fires? Can you answer me please? Reading Vedas and practicing of astanga yoga is good. But it does not mean that they are essential for attaining salvation. Criteria for achieving salvation does not depend whether some one read Vedas or not.
Swami Ramswarup: Study of Vedas and practicing ashtang yoga is not only good but the best and supreme as said in four Vedas, six shastras, Brahmin Granth and Mahabhart. Our ancient Rishis Munis did not know about Geeta, Ramayana, and shastras etc., they knew only Vedas and ashtang yoga. After getting the knowledge they wrotethe said holy books afterwards. So the existence of said holy books are based on Vedas but Vedas are not based on these holy books. As is clear from Geeta shlok 3/15 and Manusmriti 2/6 also. And there is no its alternative. But these views are not shouldered toyou please. This is mere discussion. You and I am free to tell anything but the discussion will be having truth if is tallied with Vedas.

Ram Suri: Thus in Mundaka Up. 1.1.5, it is rightly said that the knowledge of Vedas comes under lower category (apara vidya).
Swami Ramswarup: In Mundak Upanishad 1/1/4 it is too said that PARA and APARA Vidya both are to be known and in Mundak Upanishad it has never been said anywhere, as you said, " that the knowledge of Vedas comes under lower category". Not this Upanishad but not any Upanishad or shastra or any ancient Brahmin Granthetc., can use the said insulting words against the God given knowledge of four Vedas (Yajurveda mantra 31/7, Atharvaveda mantra 4/1/1 and 10/7/20, Saamveda mantra 373 and Rigveda mandal 10 and even Geeta shlok 3/15 refers that Vedas are emanated direct from God.). But I already told that everybody is free to say anything please. So these views are not shouldered to you please.

Ram Suri: Similarly, Lord Krishna in Gita 11/53 says that divine realization cannot be achieved by reading Vedas etc. but can only be achieved by exclusive devotion for divine (11/54).
Swami Ramswarup: As regards Geeta shlok 11/53, 11/54 please send full meaning thereof to comment specially on word TATVENA PRAVESHTU and MAT KARAMKRIT MATPARMAHA In Mahabhart Vyas Muni says that Bhisham Pitamahateaches Yudhisthar that O! Yudhisthar ---1.if someone ignore and insult the Vedas then he can never realize God, he who follow the preach of Vedas and does pious deeds according to Vedas, he only attains God. (Shanti Parv 20/17)

O! Yudhisthar the two shapes of God must be understood,1. Shabad Brahm (knowledge of Vedas) 2. Par Brahm ( realization). And he who is a philosopher of Shabad Brahm ( Vedas) he only realizes God. ( Shanti Parv 53/20)

So the meaning of shlok of Mundak- Upanishad cited above is that PARA and APARA both Vidya must be attained. Then based on the APARA (Shabad Brahm), the God (PARA Vidya) is realized.

Ram Suri: See, Narad ji read all Vedas and other scriptures, but he did not get peace of mind (which is possible only by divine realization). Thus, Narad ji approached sri Sanat Kumar and got enlightened by him. For discussion between Sri Sana Kumar and Narad ji, please see Chh. Up. 7.1 onwards. Therefore, the conclusion is that Knowledge of Vedas is not required for divine realization, and one does not need to stay in densejungles for worship of divine please.
Swami Ramswarup: Could Narad ji go to Sanat Kumar with lack of knowledge of Vedas? When Sanat Kumar Rishi's were himself/themselves were philosopher of Vedas and ashtang yoga. Could Sanat Kumar accept him with the lack of knowledge of Vedas? Could they finish tradition? In Prashnopnisahd the Rishis went to Piplad Rishi, after studying four Vedas i.e., the question of APARA and PARA Vidya is solved.

Swamiji's previous reply: The meaning of "shradha = shrat+ dha iti shradha " shrat means truth i.e., Almighty and formless God and none else. Such like souls go to Devlok as I have already quoted the Yajurveda chapter 39.Then a manomaye Purush carries such souls to brahmlok. But the meaning of manomaye Purush is the utmost and unlimited realization of merriment (Brahmanand) and this stage makes sure for such souls to realize God. Such souls then remain in brahmlok i.e., attains moksh.
Ram Suri Present reply: Sir! What is this Brahma Lok? Who resides in this Brahma Lok? I clearly remember that in one of your previous emails, you have clearlysaid that no such lokas exist in space. You said that these lokas are nothing but our physical body. Now, you are expressing quite opposite view by saying that such souls will remain in Brahma Lok. Your understanding that physical body represents variouslokas is not acceptable as it is against to sruti teachings. Because, the soul, discussed above, was traveling or going from sun, agni etc, places after the death of the physical body. Right? Then, where is the question of physical body now? It is already dead, and thus, the soul goes to various regions. Right? It means the physical body does not represent Brahma Lok or any other lok. Right?
Swami Ramswarup: Several times I have told that salvation is attained while alive. And Yajurveda mantra 40/5 says the God is within body. Some learned person too say, JO BRAHMANDE SO HI PINDE.

Ram Suri: If you have said that physical body represents Brahma Lok due to some error, then it will be ok.
Swami Ramswarup: Not error but correct please.

Ram Suri: Because every one makes mistakes sometimes and thus I won't be very serious on your error. Now, can you please tell me what is the above Brahma Lok, and who resides there? How long the above souls remain in this Brahma Lok?
Swami Ramswarup: Quoted above and after leaving the body the period I have told previously quoting two mantras of Rigveda but all this is not shouldered to you whether accept or not, you are free. And I am also free to quote Ved mantras.

Swamiji's previous reply: they become like jyotiswarup. So such learned souls are themselves archi and amanav . Here learnes souls means the soul of a Yogi- Rishi or Muni who has attained Brahm and has got moksh such i.e., merriment of salvation.Amanav means he who is lack of proud and is humble.
Ram Suri present reply: You are saying above that the learned souls are archi and amanav, and this amanav is the one who is lack of proud and is humble. Basicallyyou are saying that the soul on devyan marg is nothing but amanav purush.
Swami Ramswarup: I have already explained about Devyan and Dakshinayan marg please see those references. so I am not denying DEVYAN AND Dakshinayan marg because I have already clarified to you. And due to shortage of time I cannot clarify again.

I have several times told that the human body is Braham lok where the God is realized. So manomaya Purush means the soul has got utmost merriment then realizes God while in body.

So please there must be solid rule on which the discussion can be carried forward. The first rule is that Vedas are eternal and the knowledge of Vedas is direct from God as said above in Ved mantra and Geeta shlok. In this connection Patanjali Rishi also says in sutra 1/26 that Almighty God is the first Guru of four Rishis of unsexual creation. If you can accept this truth (which can not be shouldered ) then discussion will be continued please.

Shashtras and origin of Vedas

Deepak Rana: I recently came to a person that there is no proof from shastras that Vedas were first realized by four rishis i.e. Agni Aditya Vayu and Angira. It is only Swami Dayananda who told like this but has no shastriya praman..and he gives all the pramans from shastras like upanishads, itihas etc. to prove that the Veda mantras were seen by different rishis, not by original four.. Please provide some shastriya praman with word to word translation. I shall be very grateful.
Swami Ramswarup: answers:

Sins committed in ignorance

Ignorance is itself a sin and result thereof is borne accordingly. If we study Vedas then we will find in 31 chapter of Yajurveda and mandal 10 of Rig Veda that God creates universe and simultaneously He originates the knowledge of four Vedas in the hearts of four Rishis of unsexual creation. Yog shastra sutra 1/26 clarifies that God is thus the first Guru of four Rishis and thereafter the Rishi Munis who knows Vedas and are Yogi like Vashisth Muni, Vyas Muni and Kapil Muni etc., have been our Gurus.

Definition of Om

OM has three Hindi words. Aa,Uu and Ma. Aa is meant for Aakaar from which three names of God are built, Viraat, Agni and Vishwadi. From Uu= uukaar from which Hirnyagarbh, Vaayu and tejas names occurs and Ma = makaar from which Ishwar, Aditya and Praajyan aadi, holy names of God occurs. Rig ved mantra 1/164/ 46 says the God is one but His names are several. But here only the said names are given. Viraat means he who creates the universe. Therefore His name is Viraat.

Difference between Buddhi, Mann and Aatma

To understand the answer of the question a deep study of Rig Ved mandal 10 sukta 129 is essential. But is short one should understand about alive and non-alive matters. There are three matters in the universe. Almighty God and souls are alive. And prakriti is non-alive. It is stated in the said Rig Veda mantra 1 that when the previous universe had been destroyed and new one did not create then there was nothing to see. God, souls and prakriti was there, but in unseen stage. The sun, moon, sky, air, water, life, bodies of human beings, animals or birds, i.e., whole universe, was not there.

Adwaitvad - questions and answers - June 24, 2004

Ram Suri previous reply: The 'Amanava purusha' described in Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 guides the soul to god ('maasebya samvatsaram ....vidyu tam tatpurusho amanavaha sa yena brahma gamayatyasha devayanah pandah iti'). The meaning of this is that the soul travels from months to the year, from year to sun, from sun to moon, and from moon to lightening. Then from the region of Brahman, a non-human person, created from mind (for creation from mind, please see Br. Up. 6.2.15 - tatpurusho manas yetya brahma lokaa.) comes and guides the soul to Brahma lok. Sir! I humbly request you to read this particular reference and reply me. So that we both can start our discussion from that point onwards. Also please see, Chh. Up. 4.15.5 for the same description. Also, I request you too look Br. Up 6.2.15 for the same description. I, once again request you to give very specific and clear replies. This will also help to all people.
Swami Ramswarup: Reply is given below please.

Previous Ans from Swamiji: In this connection I have mentioned the meaning of Archi above.
Ram Suri present reply: I am not asking the meaning of Archi please. I know its meaning. It gives me an impression that now you are trying to evade the discussion by not giving concrete answer to this question. I am sure that you did not look the references I quoted from Br. Up. and Ch. Up above. After reaching the moon, the soul goes to lightening. From here, the topic of amanav purush comes into the picture, as per Br. Up. 6.2.15 - tatpurusho manas yetya brahma lokaa). You can also find the same topic in Chh. Up. 5.10.2.
Swami Ramswarup: Your views are not acceptable please. You and I or anybody is free always to quote words or meaning or anything but it does not mean that I am forcing youbto accept an do not know the meaning. This archi word, I have explained again below. You may send unlimited questions this is your right and my right is to reply as per my views. So your above views are not understood please. Please make the atmosphere sweet and calm.

Ram Suri: Now, let us see the following: Who is this person referred in the above two quotes? He is the amanav purush. Right? Where was he said to have come from in the above references? He came from Brahma Lok. Right? (Please see Br. Up. 6.2.15 - tatpurusho manas yetya brahma lokaa). Please do not say that this Brahma Lok is nothing but the physical body like that. The physical body is already dead, and thus the soul is traveling on devyan marg, and taken to Brahma Lok. That means this Brahma Lok is not representing the physical body now. Right? Where will this amanav purush lead this soul to? He will lead this soul to Brahma Lok (Please see 'yena brahma gamayati'Chh. Up. 5.10.2). Right? Please do not skip this discussion by saying that this soul does not need any assistance or like that. I am not saying that this soul requires assistance. The above references from Br. Upanishad and Chh. Upanishads are saying that. Right? Also please do not say here that Vedas donot say this or do not say that or it is against to Vedas like that. You have said previously that you have studied only 11 Upanishads (IsH, KEN, KATH, PRASHAN, MUNDAK, MANDUKYA, ETRAIYA, TETRIYE, CHHANDOGYA, BRIHIDARNAYAK AND SWETASHWTAR), which are based on Vedas. If you do not believe this, please refer your answers, posted to me on March 11, 2004. In this posting, you have given this answer. Since, my above two quotes are from Chh. Up. and Bri. Up., now you cannot say that the above references are against Vedas. Now, my question for you is that who is this Brahman to whom the amanav purush has taken this soul to? Please answer to this question. From now on, this discussion will be much more interesting for all of us. Therefore, let us confine to this topic and please answer your response soon.
Swami Ramswarup: As I have quoted above now, you and I can not suppress anybody else to make control of use toexpress. Please don't force me saying about Vedas etc. I also can not force you to express anything. I will say whatever I want and you will say whatever you want and I have regard on your questions but I will not say you to have regard on my answer but would request you not to force me to tell this and that as told above. Hope please you will not mind. Because wehave to maintain love and brotherhood at all level otherwise discussion will be over. Please excuse me if I have hurt your heart. But my request is simple and must not hurt your heart. My blessings and namaste to you.

Brihadarnyak Upnishad says in second Brahmin Shwetketu son of an Acharya reached a king of Panchal country, king Pravahann put question to shwetketu if he knows that after death where the soul goes and how again comes to this lok and what is Pitriyaan and Devyaan marg. Based on vedic philosophy the king is teaching Acharya Gautam that the learned person whoknows Vedas and knos the science of five fires or the sanyasi who has left home and ha sgone to jungle in a lonely place to worship God with trust (shradha), they both attain first the stage of Archi. Here archi means "AHAN = AHANIK" i.e., the stage of merriment. But the worldly meaning of archi is light. So first to be a learned of Vedas and knower of five fires or a sanyasi who lives in a dense jungle and does worship with trust, is necessary. The meaning of "shradha = shrat+dha iti shradha " shrat means truth i.e., Almighty and formless God and none else. Such like souls go to Devlok as I have already quoted the Yajurveda chapter 39.Then a manomaye Purush carries such souls to brahmlok. But the meaning of manomaye Purush is the utmost and unlimited realization of merriment (Brahmanand) and this stage makes sure for such souls to realize God. Such souls then remain in brahmlok i.e., attains moksh.

In Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/2 all has been said according to the 39th chapter of Yajurveda which I have already explained before. Then the upnishad say that the soul of leartned is having the result of unlimited auspicious/pious deeds andstating the world TAT PURUSHAHA AMANAVAH here the amanav means, based on the unlimited rtesult of pious deeds, such souls attain Brahm i.e., immersed in Braham and this is called Devyaan marg; that the soul has attained the God/immersed in Anand, gyan and Jyotiswarup Brahm. But the soul has not become Brahm. This happens like a swimmer who dives in the water infull for sometime and then again comes out. Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/1,2 says, "ARCHISM ABHI SAMBHAVNTI" i.e., such souls divert towards Archism i.e., jyoti (light) i.e., they become like jyotiswarup. So such learned souls are themselves archi and amanav. Here learnes souls means the soul of a Yogi- Rishi or Muni who has attained Brahm and has got moksh such i.e.,merriment of salvation. Amanav means he who is lack of proud and is humble. In this connection Sankhya shastra sutra 3/78 to 82 which I have quoted before also states that the learned soul while living in body become jeevanmukt. Because if he is not alive then who will give the real knowledge to the aspirants. Otherwise sutra 3/81 says that there will be a tradition of blind faith.

Chhandogya Upnishad 4/15/5 says such learned soul who has attained salvation, when dies then whether his cremation wherte the dead body met with fire are performed or not is immaterial because his soul has attained salvation or eternal jyoti. Thereason is that when his body is burnt then his body is put into fire and such cremation is not done then yet the soul of learned has already attain salvation and jyoti (light). Because funeral is meant for body and not for soul. First his soul becomes archi i.e., ray of light then the light increases like day light then light increases land becomes like a light of Puranmasi (jyoti), it increases further light becomes of six months then years and then becomes like Aditya i.e.,the soul's light seems to be light equivalent to Aditya (sun). Then from Aditya jyoti to chandra jyoti and chandra jyoti to vidyut jyoti and this process the soul of manav itself becomes a manav. Now please send your comments.

I have given this reply based on Vedas and upnishads comments by Vidya Martand Dr. Satyavrat Sidhantalankaar Ex. M.P. and vice chancellor, Gurkul Kangri University. If you can study, please study these Upnishads, if not then it is okay because it is not compulsion. The eternal knowledge are four Vedas and 11 upnishads quoted by you above also have been written by those Rishis and even Bhagwat Geeta, who were the philosopher of four Vedas and ashtang yog philosopjhy. And those Rishis have mentioned in the upnisahd and six shastras and Geeta that they first gained knowledge from Vedas and practiced ashtang yog then they wrote the said holy books. So it is my opinion and not compulsion that before studying the said holy books the study of Vedas and practice of ashtang yog is a compulsion to know the real meaning of the words of the said holy books. It is my opinion and cannot not be forced on anybody please. Yog shastra sutra 1/7 clearly asks the proof of Ved mantra on anybody's views to justify the truth. Now I have totally finished the matter of archi and amanav from my side only please.

Views on current swamis

God has made universe and bless us human body to do pious deeds only. He has not made any heaven or hell. All have to face the result of their deeds good or bad here only even by taking rebirth. God has not only made universe but has also given knowledge of four Vedas where your answer to question and everyone's answer to question have been given.

There are four Vedas, 1. Rig Veda gives knowledge of science, matter of the universe like sun, moon, air body etc., etc.,

Quest to realize truth in human life

The target of a human life to realize truth under the guidance of a Guru even continues (in) the family life like Shri Ram, sita etc., or a brahamcharya life like Bal brahmcharini Gargi who was the Guru of king Janak. But now a days due to attraction in materialistic articles only the people have become ignorant about the path of eternal spiritualism for which we have been blessed with a human body.

Adwaitvad - questions and answers - June 13, 2004

Swamiji's previous reply: I have quoted chapter 39th of Yajurveda and in its mantra 6 it is mentioned that the soul, after leaving the body wanders first day in Surya second in Agni third Vaayu fourth Aditya, fifth chandrma, 6 Ritu etc., etc. But these are called padarth (matter and non -alive), please. and not alive deity.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! I agree that soul wanders at surya, agni etc. But I do not agree for your saying that surya, agni, vaayu etc are padarth (matter and non-alive) materials. If this under standing of yours is correct, then how come Lord Krishna in 4/1 of Gita says that he had given the teaching of yoga to Surya dev? As per your understanding of scriptures, if surya is also a non-alive thing, then no one can teach the science of yoga to a non-alive, padarth thing. Because, a non-alive thing cannot understand even a very great truth is given to it. Right? But in Gita, Lord Krishna made references that surya dev, after learning the science of yoga from Lord Krishna or divine, in turn gave the same teaching to Manu. A non-alive thing cannot learn anything and cannot teach anything to others. Right? When surya dev is leant the science of yoga from Lord Krishna and then later instructed this knowledge to Manu, it means that surya dev is not a non-alive matter, but he is a god (dev, different from divine), having a body and a soul. Right? The body of surya dev is different from our physical body. The conclusion, therefore, is that your understanding that sury, agni etc are non-alive matters is not correct sir.
Swami Ramswarup: The sun shining in the sky is non- alive matter made from prakriti as said in Kapil Muni's Samkhya Shastra sutra 1/26, Rigveda mandal 10 sukta 129, and in ateryo upnishad shlok 1/2. But we are not concerned about these non-alive suyra etc. But I recollect that somewhere you have told that the shining sun in the sky has a body and in his body he has alive soul also. And Yogeshwar Shri Krishna has given the yoga knowledge to soul of the sun. This is not accepted please being against the Vedas. Non-alive matters have no soul only man, woman, birds and animals' bodies have souls and Almighty God being omnipresent. Rigveda mandal 10 sukta 181 clarifies that the God has originated the knowledge of fourVedas to Agni, Vayu, Aditya and Angira Rishi. These Rishis further gave this knowledge of four Vedas to Brahma. Brahma was also a Rishi and took birth from parents. Brahma gave this knowledge further to others.

God creates five matters agni, vayu, jal, akash and prithvi. Akash is antriksh wherein sun the non-alive matter shines. But it does not need that agni, vayu, surya, angira can not be a name of alive person. Today also so many suraj or suryadev are the name of boy or man. But in deep Yajurveda mantra 32/1 says that agni, aditya(sun), vayu and chandrma, shukram, braham, apah (water) and omnipresent are also the name of God. You may study these please because these are the unchanged proof. Geeta's original shlok 4/1 say that yog vidya was given to Vivaswan and not surya. But the meaning of Vivaswan is surya. And this Vivaswan/surya was an alive person who further gave this knowledge to his son Manu.

Ram Suri: You know well that sun, moon, agni, vaayu etc are associated with the departed soul in devyan marg. Right? You contended that these are non-alive material things. Right? But in Brahma Sutras 4.3.4, the sutra (Ativahhikasllingat) indicates that sun, moon, agni etc cannot be a mere sign posts on the road side for the departing soul on devyan marg. This sutra indicates that sun, moon agni etc are various deities. If you do not believe me, please, see sri Shankara commentary on Brahma Sutras. If you do not believe sri Shankar's commentary, then please see sri Ramanuja's commentary for this sutra. You have expressed earlier that sri Ramanuja has done lot of work that tallys with Vedas. That means you have faith on him and his commentaries. I request you humbly to read his commentaries in this regard and after confirmation, please reply me your understanding on this issue sir.
Swami Ramswarup: Yogeshwar Shri Krishna studied four Vedas with sakha Sudama in Gurukul of Rishi Sandeepan. Shri Krishna that is why says in shlok 3/15 that Vedas are originated from God. So Vedas are SWATAH PRAMAAN and needs no other Pramaan (proof) please. All Vedas say that the knowledge of Vedas and yoga was given by God Himself. And originated in the heart of four Rishis amongst whom there was Surya Rishi also. In Braham sutra 4/3/4 the meaning of Archi is Rashmi. Therefore the days and night are only meant for those places where the Rashmi i.e., lights are available. But soul is himself is a ocean of light and needs no any more light and crosses all these surya etc., to reach the destination. Chandogya upnishad 8/6/5 also refers.

Swamiji's previous reply: In Vedas Devayan marg means the soul has got salvation and pitriyann marg means the soul who has not got salvation and requiresrebirth. And salvation is always while living in body. This is also quoted in Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/7.
Ram Suri previous reply: Sir! With due respect I would like to say that I have very clear concepts about Devyan and Pitriyan margs. Your understanding that salvation is always living in body is not completely accurate. This is only applicable to those persons who experienced the divine while living. These persons are called jeevan muktas. It is very pity that you are thinking that these jeevan muktas also follow archiradhi marg (which is also called devyan path) to achieve salvation. It is very, very wrong. If you do not believe me, please, please ask some enlightened person to find out the truth. The type of salvation that Jeevan muktas gets is called sadhyo mukti, which is entirely different from krama mukti, which is resulted due to following of soul by archiradhi marg. Sir! I am sorry to say that since you are lack of thorough Upanishad knowledge, you are getting confusion again and again. I do not have any anger against you, but I feel pity very sincerely for you. I am very much astonished to see that you do not even know that there are two types of salvations, as per Upanishads. Now, please let us see what the reference Chhandogya Upanishad 5/10/7, as quoted by you, is concerned about. This reference is concernedabout Pitriyani marg. In fact, the description of Pitriyani marg started from Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/ 3 to 7. Honestly, the reference you quoted (Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/7) does not say that salvation is always while living in body, and in your above answer, you have even claimed that this is also quoted inChhandogya Upnishad 5/10/7. Sir! This is not good. Please show my answer and your answer to an enlightened person, and ask who is right. He will tell the correct answer.
Swami Ramswarup: The oldest books of the earth are lying in the world's library called four Vedas. To realise the truth the proof of Vedas are required please. I had already told this fact and Rishi Patanjali in his sutra 1/7 has told about proof of Vedas as Swatah Pramaan. And proof of shastras/upnishads are Partah Pramaan.

Ram Suri present reply: Sir! You did not make any comments on my remarks on the reference quoted by you from Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/7 in your previous reply. For the sake of verification, I have also put your previous replies above. Please vide them. This particular reference does not say that salvation is always while living in body. I did not understand why you had quoted this reference in your previous reply in support of your claim that salvation is always while living in a body. I once again say that this reference does not match with your claim. Instead of replying to this remark, you suddenly jumped to Patanjali yoga sutra reference. I once again request you humbly to look into this particular reference and make your comments to my present response. On the other hand, if you have quoted Chhandogya Upanishad 5/10/7 reference by error in your previous reply to me, then it is ok, and I won't be serious on it. Now, please let us see what the above Patanjali sutra reference says. In the above sutra 1/7, the 'agama praman' does not talk exclusively about Vedas please. It implies about sruti. I know that the term sruti is also not found in this sutra. But it is implied there. Vedas are sruti. Similarly, Upanishads are also sruti. It means, as per 'agama praman' the sruti (both Vedas and Upanishads) are considered to be valid. In your above answer, you have selectively mentioned about Vedas, but there is no such word mentioned in agama praman. It only implied about the scriptures. When Upanishads are sruti, (like Vedas), then Upanishad teachings are also as important as Vedas, please. Therefore, Upanishad teachings are also taken as perfect proof in spiritual matters please.
Swami Ramswarup: When the proof of Vedas has been given then no other proof is essential please.

Ram Suri present reply: Please see my above answer. Vedas and Upanishads are sruti, and thus equally valid as proofs. One sruti will not condemn the teachings of another sruti in spiritual matters, and thus all have equal importance.
Swami Ramswarup: Upnishads/shastras/Mahabharta(Geeta) contains the knowledge of Vedas because their writer were the philosopher of Vedas called Rishis and Munis.

Ram Suri present reply: Correct. Bhagawat Gita is the knowledge of Vedas. In the beginning of 4/6-8 slokas of Gita, Lord Krishna says that he takes birth in different forms in order to establish dharm on the earth. But you do not believe in that. One hand you say that you believe Bhagawat Gita, because it is the knowledge of Vedas, but on the other hand you do not believe that Lord Krishna being the divine, and taken birth in the human form for some specific purposes as per 4th chapter 6-8 slokas. You say that divine does not need any assistance from anyone. When Gita is the knowledge of Vedas, then when Lord Krishna says that he takes different births as per 4/6-8 slokas, then do you say that 4/6-8 slokas are self made by Lord Krishna? Sir! This is the contradiction on your part. Can you please reply me?
Swami Ramswarup: I have already told that God and Vedas being God's eternal knowledge are supreme. Yog shastra sutra 1/26 clarify that God is the first Guru of Angira, Vaayu,Aditya and Agni Rishis. If God could not have given the knowledge then from where the knowledge of upnishad, shastras and Geeta could come on the earth. Vedas are shruti only because that this knowledge is to be listened and not read. It was from mouth to mouth from ancient times. As per Rigveda mantra 8/100/11 the Vedas mantras are first chanted by Agni, Vaayu, Surya and Angira Rishis and by listening it was got by other Rishis. Rigveda mantra 1/112/1 and Samveda mantra 744 also refers who says that this knowledge is traditional and must not be broken and our Rishis have not broken this and traditionally they have been listening and became Rishis by listening the Vedas. Now very few listen Vedas and have broken the tradition. Upnishads, Shastras etc., were written by Rishis themselves and they told the knowledge to their disciples themselves. But in the case of God, He originated the Vedas knowledge in the heart of Rishis Agni, Vayu etc., Rishi and did not spoke Himself because God does not require any assistant like mouth, eyes etc., to make understand any knowledge to anybody that is why He is God and we are souls. Now the definition of Vedas is not that Vedas are books. Books are called Samhita. Kapil Muni in his Samkhya sutra5/48 has mentioned that the undesired knowledge originated in a heart of a Yogi. Sutra 5/51 says that Vedas are SWATAH PRAMAAN so the Yoga shastra sutra 1/7 is also 100% correct (PRATAKSHANUMANAGAMAHA PRAMANANI) and needs no clarification being PARTAH PRAMAAN and in this connection Samkhya shastra sutra 1/66 also refers.

Swami Ramswarup previous reply: So the Amanav if gets salvation after death then ho will teach the real salvation path to the aspirants.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! You are mixing up lot of things here. Your above answer was not specific. But I am talking very specifically with the references. The 'Amanava purusha' described in Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 guides the soul to god ('maasebya samvatsaram....vidyu tam tatpurusho amanavaha sa yena brahmagamayatyasha devayanah pandah iti'). The meaning of this is that the soul travels from months to the year, from year to sun, from sun to moon, and from moon to lightening. Then from the region of Brahman, a non-human person, created from mind (for creation from mind, please see Br. Up. 6.2.15 - tatpurusho manas yetya brahma lokaa.) comes and guides the soul to Brahma lok. Sir! I humbly request you to read this particular reference and reply me. So that we both can start our discussion from that point onwards. Also please see, Chh. Up. 4.15.5 for the same description. Also, I request you too look Br. Up 6.2.15 for the same description. I, once again request you to give very specific and clear replies. This will also help to all people.
Swami Ramswarup: In this connection I have mentioned the meaning of Archi above.

Swamiji's previous reply: And as regards rebirth, I have quoted already the Rigveda mantra 1/24/1,2. Shri Krishna Maharaj is giving knowledge in 8/23,24 &25about Uttrayann and Dakishnayann and concludes in shlok 8/26 saying JAGATAH SHUKLA-- KRISHNE i.e., the shukla and Krishnn paksh are the saying of Jagat. That it is being said in the jagat-- world--- public i.e., not in Vedas or by Rishis Munis.
Ram Suri previous reply: Sir! Your interpretation of Gita 8/26 sloka is not correct. In this sloka, Lord Krishna says that both shukla and Krishna paths are eternal in this jagat (material world). But you are saying that these two paths are the sayings of jagat. Sir! Where did you read this type of interpretation for this sloka? I am astonished to see your understanding of scriptures do not tally with SriVyas, Sri Shankara or Sri Ramanuja explanations. Sri Ramanuja did not give interpretation like the way you had given for this sloka. Please read at least SriRamanuja's bhasyam on Gita. In spiritualism, public sayings have no meaning. Also please remember, Lord Krishna's sayings in Gita are not public sayings.
Swami Ramswarup: This is according to Vedas and I have read in Bhagwat Geeta commented by (Bhashyakaar) Vidyamartand Dr. Satyavrat Sidhantalankar. Public saying has no meaning. Neither my nor anybody else's saying but Vedas, shastras and Bhagwat Geeta's has got meaning. Please read wonderful comments on this shloka by Dr. Satyavrat quoted above which are according to Vedas.

Swamiji's previous reply: Please quote any ved mantra in your support.Because the decision from Vedas is only final and the decision of Geeta/upnishad is also final if the comments thereon are from philosopher of Vedas otherwise comments like Tirth, Yajga, Dev, etc., given by those who have not studied Vedas are not final. Because the said pious holy books have been written by ancient mantradrishta Rishis, the philosopher of Vedas and yoga and must now also needs comments like those dignities.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Why did you not quote any Ved mantra reference for your interpretation of Gita 8/26 sloka in your above answer?
Swami Ramswarup: Now Please study atharvaveda mantra quoted underneath.

Ram Suri previous reply: If you believe that your interpretation is right, then you should have given Ved mantra proof for this type of interpretation for 8/26 sloka also. Right? But you did not give any Ved mantra reference. Previously you said that Sri Ramanaujam had done a lot of work that tally with Vedas. Sri Ramanuja did not give interpretation for this sloka the way you had given currently. As per your understanding, if Sri Ramanujam's works tally with Vedas, then his interpretation of 8/26 should also tally correctly as per Vedas. Right? Also if you think that your interpretation is in accordance of Vedas, then it means that your interpretation should also match with Sri Ramanuja interpretation. Right?
Swami Ramswarup: Shri Ramanujam were Vishisht Adwaitvadi. He accepted that there are three tatv separate from each other i.e., God ,soul and jagat. But Jeev (chitt) and jagat (achitt) both are one the suksham sharir of God and this does not tally with the Vedas. We have to follow the shlok or views which are totally tally with the Vedas please.

Salvation according to the Vedas is based on Rigveda (Gyan Kand), Yajurveda (Karam kand), Saamveda (Upasana Kand)i.e., gyan, karam and upasana. It is not possible that anyone can get salvation by gyan only. And the meaning of gyan is not only an experience of divine. Rigveda gives the knowledge (gyan) of all matters of the universe including body. If we do not know about our body, prakriti and soul assaid in Bhagwat Geeta shlok 13/1-6 then it is not possible to know the divine. Secondly if we have knowledge to burn the fire of cooking gas by studying books etc., that is why doing karam, but if we will not do the karam to burn the burner then our knowledge is of no use. In upasana we have to do stuti i.e., description of God's qualities, prayer and dhyan (upasana) by which the God is known and His blessings are obtained. Then in absence of upasana the gyan and karam have no role to realize God. So as per Vedas gyan, karam and upasana are essential please.

Swamiji's previous reply: My dear, now you have created a loving atmoshphere so you must be assured that there is nothing that in our heart and you must discuss and continue this pious matter freely. As I have told above with the references that I never denied Devyan and Dakishnayann marg but meaning thereof is salvation and non-salvation respectively. But as you previously told about subtle body, so based on that there are no two types of salvation please.
Ram Suri previous reply: Sir! The issue of presence of subtle body in absolute sense for soul is a different topic. We will come to that point also slowly. I know very well that davyan marg is for salvation, and pitriyan marg is to return to samsar. But what I am saying is that salvation is of two types. One is achieved slowly by following davyan marg (also called krama mukti path) and the other type of salvation is called sadhyo mukti, meant for people like jeevan muktas. This type of classification for salvation is found in Upanishads. I have already quoted an Upanishad reference in my previous posting. I request you to read it for clear understanding please.
Swami Ramswarup: Please quote any Veda mantra about two types of salvation quoted by you. In discussion proof is essential so please do not mind and I hope you will maintain love forever.

Ram Suri present reply: Sir! I agree that proof is essential. But I have already given the required proof in my previous mail. You did not look and read that proof. Here I am giving it again. Please see Varaho Upanishad, 4.5 for two types of salvations. Lord Ram also expressed similar views in Muktiko Upanishad. Please refer them and reply to me sir.
Swami Ramswarup: Because I have not read the upnishad quoted by you. So please give reference either of 11 upnishads already quoted by me before.

Ram Suri previous request: Can you please reply whether you agree that the soul is guided to a god by a amanava purush as per Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 reference? If you agree up to point, then we can proceed further slowly.
Swamiji's previous reply: God is Almighty, please. Therefore He needs no any assistant that after leaving the body anybody will teach the aspirants. In Shevtashwaropnishad 6/8 it is said --- SWABHAVIKI GYANAM BALAM KRIYA CH i.e.,gyan, bal, and karam of Almighty God are swabhavik (naturally) i.e., needs no assistance.
Ram Suri previous reply: Here, you are talking totally out of context. In my above request, I said that as per Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 reference whether you agree to the point that the soul is guided to a god by amanava purusha. This question is still valid and still unanswered. I request you to read this reference first and then let me know its meaning, so that, we will move forward from that point onwards.
Swami Ramswarup: Answer is already clear please that God needs no assistance i.e., the mukti is while alive and in body and the amanav means Devyan marg.

Swamiji’s previous reply: Answer has been already given above and in previous discussion also that God is Almighty and needs no assistant that after leaving the body any amanav soul would teach the other soul to go to God. Salvation always is in living body and not after death. Now as I have requested above please open the whole issue after 13th June, 04.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! You are giving here a very generalized reply to me while my above question belongs specifically to Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 reference. I once again request you to look in to this reference and then please reply me.
Swami Ramswarup: Answer is already clear please that God needs no assistance i.e., the mukti is while alive and in body and the amanav means Devyan marg.

In Samkhya shastra sutra 1/23 Kapil Muni says that the bookish knowledge is only to deliver the lecture and cannot be beneficial to realize God. Because this knowledge is based on the chitta only. Though it is at first stage necessary but the second stage of realsing God in the main target of the human beings. And this realization is based on listening of Vedas, doing Yagya, and practicing ashtang yoga philosophy as said in four Vedas. Vedas are the knowledge direct from God who gives salvation and merriment to aspirant. So it cannot be told that Vedas require any experience or Vedas are not needed to realise God. Kapil Muni in his Samkhya shastra sutra 3/78 says "JEEVANMUKTASCH" i.e., salvation is attained while alive. The purush while doing deeds and while alive, is also having moksh (mukta) that is why he is called "Jeevanmuktasch" vide his sutra 3/80, Kapil Muni clarified that all our Rishi, Munis who wrote Brahmin Granth and Vedic culture got salvation while they were alive. Otherwise who will give the realized experience of God to the public? Yajurveda mantra 31/8 says that until and unless a person realizes God within him while alive, he cannot overcome the death and thus he cannot get salvation that is why Atharvaveda mantra 8/9/10 clearly says that amongst severals a rare person knows the connection between Vedas and God. No doubt that anyone can declare himself the wisest and enlightened but Vedas and Yask Muni in his Shatpath Brahmin Granth says as a proof in token that only he who knows Vedas in full and thus have realized God by way of Vedas, he is the Mantradrishta Rishi, a Vidwan. That is why Tulsi also says in Uttrakand," SHRUTI VIRODH SAB NAR NAARI " i.e., now a days most of the people are against the Vedas and he further says in Uttrakand Doha 99(a) ---" BRAHAM GYAN BINU NAARI KAHIHIN NA DOOSRI BAAT" i.e., man or woman do not talk any other topic less than Braham Gyan. So this is our moral duty to study and obey the Vedas. Prashnopnishad (1st question) says that days, nights, years etc., are made by Sun. there are two parts of a year, for six months the sun turns towards southern (Dakshin) and next six months it turns towards North (Uttar) and thus these times are called Dakshinayan and Uttarayan respectively. The moon is representative of worldly articles. So those who do "ISHTA PURTA" i.e., Yagya-Yag aadi (ISHT) and to dig well,bawdi and to built orphanages etc., for worldly articles, their path is of Dakshinayan--- Pitriyan and thus are indulged in birth and death again and again. On the other hand those who become ascetic and by Tapsya, yogabhayas, Vedas knowledge etc., get salvation, their path is of Uttrayan--- Devyan marg. But this is only time factor made by sun, shining in the sky. So one should always make his path of Uttrayan--- Devyan marg by doing pious deeds and Tapsya etc., otherwise for whole of life there will be dakshinayan marg. It has no concern with a Yogi or a Rishi etc., to leave the body i.e., if a Yogi leaves a body when sun is turned towards southern then it does not mean that the Yogi who has already got salvation, will take rebirth and his all yoga, tapsya etc., said in Bhagwat Geeta shlok 7/19 will go in vain. In this connection Atharvaveda mantra 15/17/7-10, and mantra 15/18/2-5, as desired by you are referred. I would request you toplease study these mantras.

Chandrlok said in Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/7 indicates Dakshinayan marg--- Pitriyan marg (Chandrlok) because Chandr i.e., moon is a rep. Of worldly articles as told above. So Bhagwat Geeta shlok 8/6 is according to Atharvaveda mantra cited above and Chhandogya Upnishad shlok 5/10/7. As regards Chhandogya 5/10/2 I have described about Pitriyan and Devyan marg. The meaning of Shukla paksh is to die while doing pious deeds and is of krishan paksh to die while doing sins.

Vedic tips for pregnant ladies by Swami Ramswarup

It is said in four Vedas that, "Mother is the creator of child's future." It is in her hands that how she builds her child's future by adopting good spiritual preach which is all mentioned in four Vedas. Some of the preaches are written here. Always be cheerful, wear pious ornaments, wear very much light coloured clothes and not dark, should keep peace in her mind, think welfare of others, should serve her Acharya/Guru (who knows Vedas), avoid such things which can cause anxiety to her. Don't take stale food, dry food like fired vegetables etc.

Comments on translations by Piyush Trivedi

Comments on translations by Piyush Trivedi:
1. "ahannya hani bhootaani gachhantiha yamaalayamseshaaha sthaawar michhanti kimascharyamataha param"(mahaabhaarata yaksha udhisthir samvaad)

Live people think that I will survive, even though theysee every day that others are dying.

Meaning of the sholk:-- All the personal are going toYamlok but the remaining personal are desirous ofliving. OH! What a wonder more than this.

Adwaitvad - questions and answers - April 14, 2004

Ram Suri: We need to focus more on our topic. Please read my following answers, and email me. I once again say that I have no egoism or anger to express myviews.
Swami Ramswarup: My dear I have felt your heart clearance and you must be rest assured that I always appreciate you on this pious discussion. So please do not repeat again and again. Because this is pious deed and not materialistic one.

Swamiji's previous reply: I have quoted chapter 39th of Yajurveda and in its mantra 6 it is mentioned that the soul, after leaving the body wanders first day in Surya second in Agni third Vaayu fourth Aditya, fifth chandrma, 6 Ritu etc., etc. But these are called padarth (matter and non -alive), please. And not alive deity.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Here we are talking about salvation. Right? After Ritu, where does the soul go? Can you please let me know the names of non-alive deity after Ritu till the end of this path? So that, we can take our discussion further.
Swami Ramswarup: I usually try to give answer in short with an intention that remaining answer you will choose from Vedas which will increase a lot of knowledge at all level. Now please complete the answer, after Ritu Marutah, then Brihaspatihi, then Mitrah, then Varunah, then Indrah, then at last Vishvedevaha. Then after wandering sometime the soul who got no salvation takes rebirth (bodies) according to karmas.

Swamiji's previous reply: In Vedas Devayan marg means the soul has got salvation and pitriyann marg means the soul who has not got salvation and requiresrebirth. And salvation is always while living in body. This is also quoted in Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/7.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! With due respect I would like to say that I have very clear concepts about Devyan and Pitriyan margs. Your understanding that salvation is always living in body is not completely accurate. This is only applicable to those persons who experienced the divine while living. These persons are called jeevan muktas. It is very pity that you are thinking that these jeevan muktas also follow archiradhi marg (which is also called devyan path) to achieve salvation. It is very, very wrong. If you donot believe me, please, please ask some enlightened person to find out the truth. The type of salvation that Jeevan muktas gets is called sadhyo mukti, which is entirely different from krama mukti, which is resulted due to following of soul by archiradhi marg. Sir! I am sorry to say that since you are lack of thorough Upanishad knowledge, you are gettingconfusion again and again. I do not have any anger against you, but I feel pity very sincerely for you sir. I am very much astonished to see that you do not even know that there are two types of salvations, as per Upanishads. Now, please let us see what thereference Chhandogya Upanishad 5/10/7, as quoted by you, is concerned about. This reference is concerned about Pitriyani marg. In fact, the description of Pitriyani marg started from Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/ 3 to 7. Honestly, the reference you quoted (Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/7) does not say that salvation is always while living in body, and in your above answer, you have even claimed that this is also quoted in Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/7. Sir! This is not good. Please show my answer and your answer to anenlightened person, and ask who is right. He will tell the correct answer.
Swami Ramswarup: The oldest books of the earth are lying in the world's library called four Vedas. To realise the truth the proof of Vedas are required please. I had already told this fact and Rishi patanjali in his sutra 1/7 has told about proof of Vedas as Swatah Pramaan. And proof of shastras/upnishads are Partah Pramaan. When the proof of Vedas has been given then no other proof is essential please. But if yet shastras/upnishads proof is mentioned which are even true but our Rishis still requires the proof of Vedas being Swatah Pramaan. I mentioned Rigveda mantra about Devyan (salvation)marg and Pitriyan about rebirth, so no other proof is essential. Upnishads/shastras/Mahabharta(Geeta) contains the knowledge of Vedas because their writer were the philosopher of Vedas called Rishis and Munis. Rigvedas 10/53/6 says Manuhu Bhav i.e., have the deepest study and discussion on Ved mantras. In the past three yugas the said study/discussion up to Vyas Muni was traditional and the public was happy. The shastras etc., are written by Rishis/Munis but Vedas have not been written by anybody else. This knowledge is direct from God as mentioned in every Vedas, Manu smriti and every shastras/Geeta/Upnishad/Valmiki Ramayan/Mahabharta/Shatpath Brahmin granth etc. I quote here an example please. In Yajurveda mantra 4/11 the meaning of TIRTH is the place where philosopher of Vedas (Rishis-Munis) resides, performs Yajna from Veda mantras and do ashtang yoga, where the aspirant must go to learn the same. But now this meaning has totally been changed. So now the Manan- Chintan (study etc.,) is being carried out on the present meaning and not on the eternal word Tirth. So if we go in the deep and still study the upnishad which have been commented by those who are philosopher of Vedas then only we can understand the real meaning of all culture of above said shastras/Geeta/Upnishads etc., then we find reality. As said above Manuhu Bhav means study of Vedas and not others, because said by God Himself in above Rigveda mantra. After studying Vedas we must study upnishads/shastras/geeta etc/., which are Rishi made holy books and true, but we have left the Vedas totally and are studying and discussing on the meanings of the words like Tirth. Heartily I request not to mind please but continue to send your views whether you accept my views or not. I always love and appreciate you. Everybody is free to adopt any path but when discussion is there then too we must be free but our love must be constant and permanent. So God has told Manuhu Bhav and not has told to study others leaving Vedas, the eternal knowledge. Why we should be suppressed to study and discuss the views of man made whereas the knowledge /views of God are there in Vedas.

Swamiji's previous reply: The sun, for six months remain in Uttrayann and for six months in Dakishnnayan, so it does not mean that the people who have done thousands of sins and are dead in Uttrayann will get salvation, and the Yogi leaves body in Dakishnnayan will get rebirth. The God is Almighty and the result of karmas is always in His power only. So while living a Yogi can teach the path of salvation to others as mentioned also in Samkhya sutra 3/78," JEEVANMUKTASCH " i.e., the Yogi who is alive because of living in the body is called alive and because he has got salvation so is called "Mukta". In the next sutra 3/79 Kapil Muni says that because the Yogi is alive and has experienced the realization of God that is why he only delivers the authentic preach and no others can do like this. So the Amanav if gets salvation after death then who will teach the real salvation path to the aspirants.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! I will be grateful to you if you could tell me who this amanava purusha in your above answer, and if possible, please quote Upanishad reference. Also please tell me what is the definition of uttarayan and dakshinayan in relation to salvation, and why these terms are used at all?
Swami Ramswarup: I already briefed the matter and it will take some time to rewrite. These are the days when we start four Vedas Anushthan and yoga camp from this month till second week of June. The public from all states attends. I have to devote about fourteen hours daily to preach every mantra in Hindi and to teach ashtang yoga. So please put this question after 13th June, 04. I think you will not mind please. So our next discussion will commence from 14th June please. I send my namaste to you with whole heart.

Swamiji's previous reply: Devyan is only salvation path and not dakishnayann, please.
Ram Suri present reply: But who said that dakshinayana path is a salvation path? I never said that. Then, what is your above answer pointing at sir?
Swamiji's previous reply: Association with light means salvation and with dark means rebirth because of NISHKAAM AMD SAKAAM KARMAS etc. You can say gyan marg and karam marg.
Ram Suri present reply: Please, you are using the gyan marg and karma marg in very loose sense. I will say here again that I have clear concepts about what is gyan and karma, and how they both would become synonymous to each other at the highest level. But I am not interested to debate on this issue with you after seeing how loosely these terms are used in your above answer.
Swami Ramswarup: If you have clear concept then I would request you to please quote Ved mantra as a proof.

Swamiji's previous reply: The souls, which follow Devyan marg get salvation
Ram Suri present reply: Gita also says the same thing. I agree to it. And I also know and agree that pitriyani marg makes the soul to take birth in samsar.
Swamiji's previous reply: and as regards rebirth, I have quoted already the Rigveda mantra 1/24/1,2. Shri Krishna Maharaj is giving knowledge in 8/23,24 &25 about Uttrayann and Dakishnayann and concludes in shlok 8/26 saying JAGATAH SHUKLA-- KRISHNE i.e., the shukla and Krishnn paksh are the saying of Jagat. That it is being said in the jagat-- world--- public i.e., not in Vedas or by Rishis Munis.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Your interpretation of Gita 8/26 sloka is not correct. In this sloka, Lord Krishna says that both shukla and Krishna paths are eternal in this jagat (material world). But you are saying that these two paths are the sayings of jagat.Sir! Where did you read this type of interpretation for this sloka? I am astonished to see your understanding of scriptures do not tally with sri Vyas, sri Shankara or sri Ramanuja explanations. Sri Ramanuja did not give interpretation like the way you had given for this sloka. Please read at least sri Ramanuja's bhasyam on Gita. In spiritualism, public sayings have no meaning. Also please remember, Lord Krishna's sayings in Gita are not public sayings.
Swami Ramswarup: Please quote any Ved mantra in your support. Because the decision from Vedas is only final and the decision of Geeta/upnishad is also final if thecomments thereon are from philosopher of Vedas otherwise comments like Tirth, Yajga, Dev, etc., given by those who have not studied Vedas are not final. Because the said pious holy books have been written by ancient mantradrishta Rishis, the philosopher of Vedas and yoga and must now also needs comments like those dignities.

Swamiji's previous reply: So in next shlok 8/27 Yogeshwar Shri Krishna Maharaj says ETE SRITI JANAN i.e., the Yogi who knows about these two paths andit's truth that these paths makes no difference in the matter of salvation KAH CHANA YOGI NA MUHYATI i.e., no any Yogi has any attachment or any doubt about thesaid two paths and salvation. So O Arjuna! SARVESHU KALESHU i.e., in all times (whether uttaryann or Dakishnayann or Devyan or Pitriyan) you YOG YUKTAHBHAVA i.e., always remain yourself a Yogi. I.e., if one has attained the salvation and has become Yogi so his salvation is meant for all the time without effecting Uttrayann or Dakshinayann. So from using the word Jagat Shri Krishna has himself said imaginationthat it is a world's saying only and a Yogi is not attached with the world's saying. Now you kindly send your views. Because I can't deny Bhagwat Geeta at any moment.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Neither sri Shankara nor Sri Ramanuja said the meaning for this sloka in this way. So, on one hand I would say that I respect yourviews, and on the other hand, I would say that your understanding of this sloka is not correct 100%.
Swami Ramswarup: Here the differences arise because four Vedas says the salvation through gyan, karam, and Upasana whereas anyone can say and he is free to say that salvation is meant only on gyan and not karam and upasana and other can say that salvation is based on bhakti and nothing else like karma etc. So please clear this point whether you accept Vedas knowledge i.e., gyan ,karam and upasana or not.

Swamiji's previous reply: My dear, now you have created a loving atmosphere so you must be assured that there is nothing that in our heart and you must discuss and continue this pious matter freely. As I have told above with the references that I neverdenied Devyan and Dakishnayann marg but meaning thereof is salvation and non-salvation respectively. But as you previously told about subtule body, so based on that there are no two types of salvation please.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! The issue of presence of subtle body in absolute sense for soul is a different topic. We will come to that point also slowly. I know very well that davyan marg is for salvation, and pitriyan marg is to return to samsar. But what I am saying is that salvation is of two types. One is achieved slowly by following davyan marg (also called krama mukti path) and the other type of salvation is called sadhyo mukti, meant for people like jeevan muktas. This type of classification for salvation isfound in Upanishads. I have already quoted an Upanishad reference in my previous posting. I request you to read it for clear understanding please.
Swami Ramswarup: Please quote any Veda mantra about two types of salvation quoted by you. In discussion proof is essential so please do not mind and I hope you will maintain love forever.

Ram Suri previous request: Can you please reply whether you agree that the soul is guided to a god by a amanava purush as per Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 reference? If you agree up to point, then we can proceed further slowly.
Swamiji's previous reply: God is Almighty, please. Therefore He needs no any assistant that after leaving the body anybody will teach the aspirants. In Shevtashwaropnishad 6/8 it is said --- SWABHAVIKI GYANAM BALAM KRIYA CH i.e., gyan, bal, and karam of Almighty God are swabhavik (naturally) i.e., needs no assistance.
Ram Suri present reply: Here, you are talking totally out of context. In my above request, I said that as per Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 reference whether you agree to the point that the soul is guided to a god by amanava purusha. This question is still valid and still unanswered. I request you to read this reference first and then let me know its meaning, so that, we will move forward from that point onwards.
Swami Ramswarup: Answer has been already given above and in previous discussion also that God is Almighty and needs no assistant that after leaving the body any amanav soul would teach the other soul to go to God. Salvation always is in living body and not after death. Now as I have requested above please open the whole issue after 13th June, 04.

Adwaitvad - questions and answers - April 09, 2004

Swamiji's previous reply: The conclusion of Braham sutra 4/3/1 is that he who worships Brahma goes to brahamlok through archi. Archi means Rashmi- kiran.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! There is no clash in these references, and I agree what ever the sruti says in this regard.
Swamiji's previous reply: In Chandogya Upnishad 5/10/1,2, there has been mentioned other paths also from archi to Agni, day, jyoti etc.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! The names you have mentioned as archi, agni, day, jyoti etc do not represent different paths. Instead they are various places on the path of archiradhi marg (also called devyan marg).
Swami Ramswarup: Rigveda mantra 10/88/15 throw light on this matter that (MARTYANAM PITRINNAM) i.e., in the matter of souls, who leaves body at the time of death i.e., martyanam, those who nurses them i.e., their parents--- pitrinnam, (UT) and DEVANAM i.e., those who have got salvation. For these two DWEY SRUTI --- two paths are there:
One Pitiryann and second Devyan. (Tabhyam) from those (EJAT VISHWAH SMITI) i.e., got salvation and the second (PITRAM MATRAM ANTRA CHAYAT) i.e., who does not get salvation that soul takes rebirth. So these Pitriyann and Devyan two paths have been stated in Vedas.

Braham Sutra [4/2/21(517)] is regarding death. It is clear by Vedas that soul leave the body one day and gets next body according to his good or bad deeds. The soul of a Yogi comes out through Sushamna Naadi and makes contact with rays of sun. See if a Yogi leaves the body in night it does not mean that there are no sun's ray. The rays of moon are the rays of sun at the night and until we are alive, the contact with the sun's ray can't be broken. Therefore there is no any question or doubt to leave the body in Uttrayan Shukla paksh to get salvation etc. The salvation or the next pious birth is always based on pious deeds according to Vedas. This is the fundamental law of God and can't be changed. So no question of Uttrayan or Dakshinayan. The contact of the soul at the time of death with sun's ray is to be in space and soul has to go to sun, moon, air, etc., etc., vide 39th chapterof Yajurveda. The Braham sutra quoted above clarifies that the said fundamental law is applicable also for a Yogi. Yogeshwar Krishna clarifies this fact in Geeta shlok 8/23,24, 25 that the people says the importance of Uttrayan and Dakishnnayan but in shlok 8/27 Shri Krishna clarifies that it is based only on self imagination but the Yogi who knows the fundamental of karmas he does not worry about Uttrayan and Dakishnnayan.

Ram Suri: The soul passes through these places. It is like this sir. If I go to Agra from Delhi, the route from Delhi to Agra is called the path. Various stations that come in between the journey are various places only, but not called paths of the journey. Since you have quoted sri Ramanuja's reference previously, let me say what sri Ramanuja had said about these names of the path. He said that the names, like agni, day, etc represent the names of various deities on this path. You said previously that do not believe in the existence of any gods or deities. But sri Ramanuja believed in the existence of gods or deities. I also remember you saying that sri Ramanuja had done a lot of work, which tally with Vedas. When sri Ramanuja believed the existence of various gods or deities based on his understanding of Vedas, then why you do not believe in the existence of various gods or deities as per Veda teachings. On the other hand, both sri Vyas and sri Shankara also said that the names represent various deities on this path.
Swami Ramswarup: I have quoted chapter 39th of Yajurveda and in its mantra 6 it is mentioned that the soul, after leaving the body wanders first day in Surya ,second in Agni, third Vaayu, fourth Aditya, fifth chandrma, 6 Ritu etc., etc. But these are called padarth (matter and non -alive) please. And not alive deity. In Vedas Devayan marg means the soul has got salvation and pitriyann marg means the soul who has not got salvation and requires rebirth. And salvation is always while living in body. This is also quoted in Chhandogya Upnishad 5/10/7.

Swamiji's reply: And as regards Manav and amanav, the sadhak (manav) himself becomes a manav and teaches the aspirants and this philosophy is said " Devyanmarg"
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! The term 'amanav' is found in Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 (please see the term 'tat purusho amanava'). You have used two termsin your answer, namely, 'manav and amanav'. The usage of both these terms should be done differently. Here both cannot be used to denote one. The reason is that amanav (a non-human person) comes into our discussion for the sake of leading the soul that has followed the path of devayani or archiradhi marg (Both these names indicate the same path, please. I believe that you know it). This amanav purush leads the soul to aparticular god (who is not supreme, and going of this soul to this god itself is not equal to getting salvation. Salvation for this soul comes in much later stages). It means that the question of amanav purush leading the soul of the sadhaka will only come after the death of physical body. Right? Then, where is the question of living of this sadhaka? He is already dead, and his soul has followed devayani path, and after passing different places, amanav purush comes to the soul and leads this soul to a particular god. Right? This soul cannot take any more births to become a manav and to teach the aspirants about philosophy. Why this soul cannot take any more births in future? Because, the sadhaka when living on earth had done good spiritual sadhana and longed or aimed for salvation. When the soul of this sadhaka follows devayani path, it means that the soul is qualified(due to lot of sadhana) to get salvation. If this is the case, how can this soul take birth and teaches to the aspirants about philosophy? This is not possible. And you have said that this philosophy to be devyanmarg. Devyan marg is a path, where a qualified soul passes through different places for the sake of salvation, as described in sruti, which I had already quoted couple of references previously (Chandogya, Bri. Uapnishads etc.), and reaches to a god by the help of a amanav purush. Therefore, your above explanation does not tally with Upanishads, and I do not believe that Vedas would contradict the Upanishad teachings.
Swami Ramswarup: The sun, for six months remain in Uttrayann and for six months in Dakishnnayan, so it does not mean that the people who have done thousands of sins and are dead in Uttrayann will get salvation, and the Yogi leaves body in Dakishnnayan will get rebirth. The God is Almighty and the result of karmas is always in His power only. So while living a Yogi can teach the path of salvation to others as mentioned also in Samkhya sutra 3/78," JEEVANMUKTASCH " i.e., the Yogi who isalive because of living in the body is called alive and because he has got salvation so is called "Mukta". In the next sutra 3/79 Kapil Muni says that because the Yogi is alive and has experienced the realization of God that is why he only delivers the authenticpreach and no others can do like this. So the Amanav if gets salvation after death then who will teach the real salvation path to the aspirants.

Swamiji's reply: Archi means a stage of the soul like a pure ray." Aha" (day) means the stage like a pure, bright day and so on. So these are the stages of souls and death on a proper day etc.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Various names like aha, jyoti, brightness etc etc., are the names of various deities associated with archiradhi marg. Please also vide my above answer where sri Shankara, sri Vyas and sri Ramanuja had expressed this opinion. Therefore, they do not represent the death of a person on a proper day etc. Perhaps you may also be thinking about uttarayan and dakshinayana margs.
Swamiji's reply: Geeta shlok 8/27 is based on imagination only,
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Your opinion is not correct please. In this sloka, Lord Krishna says that knowing these two paths, a devotee is never bewildered (not trapped in to moha). These two paths, described in sloka 8/26 of Gita, are not two types of salvation paths. I hope you know this. Ans. Devyan is only salvation path and not dakishnayann, please. In 8/26, Lord Krishna says that there are two types of departing from this world. These two types of departing of souls after death is not equal to two types of path of salvation. One path of departure is associated with light and the other path of departure is associated with dark.
Swami Ramswarup: Association with light means salvation and with dark means rebirth because of NISHKAAM AMD SAKAAM KARMAS etc. You can say gyan marg and karam marg.

Ram Suri: What is light path departure? Please read 8/24 sloka of Gita This is called archiradhi marg or devay marg (also called krama mukti marg).
Swami Ramswarup: As I have already explained above this is salvation and a Yogi then need not to repeat jap, tap, karma etc.

Ram Suri: Souls, which follow this path, will never take birth. Then what is dark path departure? Please read 8/25 sloka of Gita. Souls, which follow this path, will eventually take birth in this samsar. Sir! How can you say so simply that Gita 8/27 is based on imagination? Please contemplate over it.
Swami Ramswarup: The souls which follow Devyan marg get salvation and as regards rebirth, I have quoted already the Rigveda mantra 1/24/1,2. Shri Krishna Maharaj is giving knowledge in 8/23,24 &25 about Uttrayann and Dakishnayann and concludes in shlok 8/26 saying JAGATAH SHUKLA-- KRISHNE i.e., the shukla and Krishnn paksh are the saying of Jagat. That it is being said in the jagat-- world--- public i.e., not in Vedas or by Rishis Munis. So in next shlok 8/27 Yogeshwar Shri Krishna Maharaj says ETE SRITI JANAN i.e., the Yogi who knows about these two paths and it's truth that these paths makes no difference in the matter of salvation KAH CHANA YOGI NA MUHYATI i.e., no any Yogi has any attachment or any doubt about the said two paths and salvation. So O Arjuna! SARVESHU KALESHU i.e., in all times (whether uttaryann or Dakishnayann or Devyan or Pitriyan) you YOG YUKTAH BHAVA i.e., always remain yourself a Yogi. I.e., if one has attained the salvation and has become Yogi so hissalvation is meant for all the time without effecting Uttrayann or Dakshinayann. So from using the word Jagat Shri Krishna has himself said imagination that it is a world's saying only and a Yogi is not attached with the world's saying. Now you kindly send your views. Because I can't deny Bhagwat Geeta at any moment.

Swamiji's reply: otherwise the salvation is attained while alive.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Let us be serious about our spiritual discussion. Salvation is meant for soul, not to a physical body. A sadhaka utilizes the physical body etc to perform intense sadhana. When this sadhaka experiences the divine, then he is called a jeevan mukta technically. This term is only used figuratively to show the difference of this jeevan mukta with rest of the humans, who are bonded in samsar. Jeevan mukti is not an absolute state of salvation. Absolute salvation is only meant for soul. It means that after the death of this jeevan mukta, his soul will get the salvation in absolute sense.
Swami Ramswarup: Whatever you are saying, this I have said before that in salvation the physical body is not required but a jeevan mukta needs this body till such time he leaves it and remains alive. This fact is also said by Kapil Muni in Samkhya shastra sutra 3/82--- CHAKRBHRAMANNVAD DHRITSHARIRAH i.e, as a potter uses his power on the stick to rotate potter's wheel and thus the wheel itself rotates till the time the strength used by the potter comes to an end. Similarly after getting salvation the Yogi remains alive in the body till such time his breathing time given by the God is finished.

Swamiji's reply: Secondly, there are no two types of salvation because salvation (moksh) means lack of body and sorrows etc.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! Your opinion is not correct again. Please understand that I am not saying it due to anger or hatred for you or anyone. But a truth is a truth, and it is always bitter to hear it initially. In 8/26, Lord Krishna describes two types of departures from this world. In simple language it is like this. One is going and never comes back, and the other one is going and coming back. Going and never comes back is called salvation. This is of two types, as per sruti please. Sir! Whether you believein these two types of salvation paths or not is not important for me. My only intension is to tell what ever is mentioned in Upanishad. Please see Varaho Upanishad, 4.5 about two types of salvations. Lord Ram also expressed similar views in Muktiko Upanishad. Onetype of salvation is called sadhyo mukti (simply called Immediate salvation). This type of salvation is meant for jeevan muktas, who experience divine while living. The second type of salvation is called krama mukti path (also called archiradhi marg or devayan marg or light marg or solar path or gradual salvation path). Sir! How can you say that no two paths of salvation exist when sruti says? Please contemplate over it.
Swami Ramswarup: My dear, now you have created a loving atmosphere so you must be assured that there is nothing that in our heart and you must discuss and continue this pious matter freely. As I have told above with the references that I never denied Devyan and Dakishnayann marg but meaning thereof is salvation and non-salvation respectively. But as you previously told about subtle body, so based on that there are no two types of salvation please.

Swamiji's reply: Yogeshwar while in body (alive) is also in salvation but will feel heat, cold etc., through body but soul has got Samadhi,
Ram Suri present reply: What ever you have said above is applicable to a jeevan mukta. I agree to it. But this state of salvation is not correct in absolute sense. See, even a jeevan mukta has karma to face it. In that situation, how can anyone could say the stateof salvation of a jeevan mukta be in absolute sense. It does not mean that salvation is given in bits and pieces. Please understand that absolute salvation is applicable to soul only. If you do not believe in these words, it does not matter to me. Because theseare not my self-made words, but sruti says it. I will wait for your reply on this.
Swami Ramswarup: I have clarified above this point saying Samkhya sutras 3/78to 82 , please. Now please send your comments.

Swamiji's reply: but after death he will not feel anything else due to lack of body because from body, the sorrows, seasons, happiness, sadness etc., are felt. If it is not then, half salvation with subtle body etc., is not mentioned in Shatpath Brahmin kand 14, already stated or in any Ved mantra.
Ram Suri present reply: Sir! There is no mention of half salvation in scriptures. I have never said that. What I am saying is that absolute salvation is only meant for soul. A jeevan mukta state is not an absolute state of salvation. A jeevan mukta also faces the karma. Once this concept becomes clear, then there won't be any confusion about absolute salvation, which is only meant for soul.
Swami Ramswarup: Please see above samkhya sutra and send your comments now.

Ram Suri: Can you please reply whether you agree that the soul is guided to a god by a amanava purush as per Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.2 reference? If you agree up to point, then we can proceed further slowly.
Swami Ramswarup: God is Almighty, please. Therefore He needs no any assistant that after leaving the body anybody will teach the aspirants. In Shevtashwaropnishad 6/8 it is said --- SWABHAVIKI GYANAM BALAM KRIYA CH i.e., gyan, bal, and karam of Almighty God are swabhavik (naturally) i.e., needs no assistance.

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